A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

hawkeyefan

Legend
I didn't make a general claim that making decisions is more realistic than other methods. I said the DM making a reasonable decision about something weapon breakage, is more realistic than pink bunny dreams resulting in a weapon breaking.

My apologies....if I'd realized that this was your point, I would not have replied at all.

Two methods that were both about orange juice(equal realism). I was talking about making Tang(less realistic) more like orange juice(more realistic). Your comparison shifted the conversation away from what it was about.

I'm struggling to understand this analogy.

Aren't we discussing comparative methods? Method A compared to Method B?

If you're point is that Method A is better than no method at all, I suppose you may be on to something. I just don't know if it's all that meaningful. I also think it does nothing to comment on Method B or Method C, which seems to be what you're trying to do.

Baseline D&D already has mechanics for this. Page 256 of the 5e DMG might help you. Or you could use the 1e rules for disease. They're much better and more realistic than the 5e version. Also, you should probably have these illnesses affect all of the classes. If you limit them to only fighters for some reason, you are losing realism in other areas.

Well, only the fighter in my campaign has a diet where I worry about incontinence! The wizard lets at least the occasional vegetable pass his lips, and the Cleric worships a nature deity, so he's practically a vegetarian. The diseases listed in the DMG seem much more impactful than the minor thing I'm talking about.....they're self-described plot devices more than anything else. I prefer to keep my game realistic...and certainly most people will face minor illnesses more often than major diseases....so I'll add a mechanic to handle this!

That's more realistic, right?
 

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hawkeyefan

Legend
In and of that particular instant and looking at nothing else, both are equally realistic and consistent and valid.

But there's a bigger picture to consider: first the easy one, whether the right-hand path being more travelled makes sense with what has been determined in the fiction leading up to this point; and second the harder one, whether that determination now is going to risk leading to things appearing later that should have (or could have) been known or telegraphed sooner.

On the first point, I would say that predetermining things actually creates more risk of inconsistency. Certainly a new element that is introduced can't contradict what hasn't been established, right? So this seems a pretty pointless concern.

On the second, I would say that this is a more valid concern, but that I think it's far less of a big deal than you seem to think. There's nothing that says new elements introduced in a more narrative game must come from absolutely nowhere. You can build to things just as you can in a traditional RPG.


In a pre-mapped situation the GM [and maybe everyone, depending whether a) the map is already known or b) someone in the party has flight capabilities and went up to scout] will in theory know what both paths lead to before the party get to the junction, and that knowledge will then inform the tracking results. Internal logic is maintained.

If they already know the areas beyond the branching paths, then there's no real need to focus on the amount of traffic at the fork. Certainly the traffic at the fork might be the trigger for such exploration....which can then be narrated accordingly in either method. The GM can read the boxed text or paraphrase from his notes, or the GM can call for dice rolls, and then construct what is found there based on the results.

I think that in this case, the predetermination may be helpful for some GMs. I myself find that kind of stuff very helpful, depending on what it is. But I also love determining things on the fly. Or a combination of the two things, which is I think what most narrative games really are; the GM has ideas about what may come up, often very informed by what would be challenging or meaningful to the characters, and then lets the dice roll to determine how those things come into play.


Because unless the entire idea of setting exploration is denied to the group, the players don't know what's out there that they haven't seen yet. If for example the GM already knows that the left path leads to an orcish village while the right path leads to a rarely-used dock on a lake then the GM could have in various ways telegraphed or breadcrumbed these things earlier had the opportunity arisen. But if the GM doesn't know these things then she can't telegraph anything; she can't describe elements of the scene that might very logically be there (e.g. that the traffic on the left path is probably all orc) because she has no way of knowing yet that they would exist.

I think this is likely one area where the misconception of narrative games comes up.....it's not all being determined on the fly by improv. Certainly the PCs are heading in a certain way for some reason. Very likely they have an idea of what challenges may lay ahead. The GM'll have an idea about all this regardless of the game type, and likely have discussed this with the players in one way or another.


I don't have to have in this case, if a dumb bozo like me can see how easily it'd fall apart.

Actually, you do. I mean, if you want to have an informed opinion. You can certainly put forth any assumptions you want about anything. But without actual knowledge to back them up, that's all they are.....assumptions. Even the ones that may turn out to be correct, they are mere assumptions.

The only way it wouldn't happen is if the players were extremely forgiving of inconsistency (which IMO is close to unforgivable if it happens all the time) or simply didn't care enough.

I can imagine that it may seem this way without having firsthand experience. But you are incorrect. There's nothing about such games that makes them more prone to inconsistency than any other game.
 

I don't have to have in this case, if a dumb bozo like me can see how easily it'd fall apart.

The only way it wouldn't happen is if the players were extremely forgiving of inconsistency (which IMO is close to unforgivable if it happens all the time) or simply didn't care enough.

I don't think it would be especially prone to falling apart. First of all, there's no guarantee whatsoever that any indication is needed. In your example there's no reason to believe that the orcs left especially recognizable signs, nor that anyone in fact made an attempt to look for them.

Beyond that, in HoML for example, there are ample ways in which a player could determine that orcs are on the right hand path. He could simply utilize some kind of ability which would let him determine this, or he could expend inspiration and decide that his 'raised by orcs' background should be leveraged so he can visit an orc village. The GM might well respond to this with "it appears that many orcs have traveled to the right."

I would be exceedingly surprised if players noticed or complained of 'inconsistency'. Even in classic D&D games I have both run and played in I almost never heard such a complaint, unless the GM sprung some total gotcha on the players.
 

Yes, this is exactly what I mean by referring to unarticulated assumptions about how RPGing "must" be.

Well, presumably there are some Manhattan-ites who have the privilege of living their lives in that very fashion! (I live in a country which is rather peripheral in world terms, but am conscious that there are peripheries of the periphery whose inhabitants have to engage with my situation in a way that I don't have to engage with theirs.)

But one wouldn't expect to encounter those particular Manhattan-ites posting in a "rest of the world" forum. Just stick to the I-heart-NYC ones, and maybe even particular subforums.

It is the posting on the 'rest of the world forum' to inform the guy who got lost in the backwoods of Maine that finding your way is a simple procedure of going down to the next cross street and turning right or left as needed.

TBH, I just find the objections that are made to narrative play to be essentially 'spherical cows'. [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] complains that 'inconsistencies will arise', yet in 1000's of sessions of actual play I have seen little sign of any of these inconsistencies. Nor has classical play convinced me that GMs are particular apt at attending to every possible inconsistency. I can't say I believe that there is any greater likelihood that any given GM running a game in 'classic' style is more likely to do so than that the players and GM in a scene framing exercise will produce narrative which seems consistent. Thus these sorts of objections and observations, particularly as they aren't based on comparing styles of play both of which the commentator has experience with, are really just sort of 'sphere world' kind of objections. You can invent them, hypothetically they might arise, but in terms of actually playing actual RPGs they simply don't become concerns.
 

The only "weakness" you've pointed to (by way of bolding @Lanefan's post) is that because I don't pre-author I won't have pre-authored material to establish which path is the more travelled. That's self-evident. (Tautological, even.) But you were defending Lanefan's claim that this will lead to inconsistent fiction. That is what @Hawkeye and I are denying.

This makes no sense. If you go down the right path and observe no tracks, then either (i) there's no village, or (ii) for some reason there are no tracks to find. (Eg it's a village of ghosts.)

I don't even see any real need to go this far. When did it last rain in this spot in [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]'s game? I would be fairly surprised if a ready answer exists to this question in most cases. How hard or soft is the soil? What exact sorts of undergrowth and conditions prevail on and around this trail? Without knowing these things there isn't any way to assign some sort of probability to the question of whether or not orc tracks are likely to be spotted. In fact it is merely a supposition, one designed to support a particular opinion about different types of game play, which leads to this 'orc track objection'.

In fact, this is basically exactly the same sort of blindness which leads to the whole set of assertions about GM-directed classic 'high myth' play WRT a more dynamic 'story now' zero myth style of play. The GM/commentator in both cases simply makes assumptions and draws conclusions on these assumptions and then labels them 'facts' or 'logical deductions' when in fact they're not, they're just making stuff up! This is a fine way to play, but elevating it to some higher plane where it is 'more realistic' or 'more consistent' seems like just plain blindness to me.
 

Such inconsistent authoring is unavoidable with the style of play you engage in. Or do you really expect me to believe that before any player authors anything in the fiction, you guys stop and go over ever single thing ever authored in that campaign to see if it results in any type of inconsistency and cease that specific case of authoring if it does?

Yup! Just as likely that we will do that in my game as that you will carefully note down every single offhand assumption and bit of reasoning you went through to come up with every little detail in your game, and then manage to index and crosscheck them all and maintain this sort of database across years of play.

And lest you believe I am not fully cognizant of all the issues with doing this. I have 10 three-ring binders, and several boxes full of other papers and notes on my D&D campaign(s). I also have a very extensive wiki which I use to keep track of everything I can. It is absolutely a monstrous task, and I am utterly certain (because I've many times discovered it myself) that there are inconsistencies, forgotten and overlooked material, etc. all over the place in that mass.

Even in shorter and more restricted campaigns I've run it is unlikely that, using your sort of techniques, I would be able to attain full consistency. I wouldn't expect the game to be any more consistent in fact than one I would author on the fly using 'Pemertonian' techniques today.
 

pemerton

Legend
When I used to prep everything, I already had all the consistent information available at my fingertips.
When did it last rain in this spot in [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]'s game? I would be fairly surprised if a ready answer exists to this question in most cases. How hard or soft is the soil? What exact sorts of undergrowth and conditions prevail on and around this trail? Without knowing these things there isn't any way to assign some sort of probability to the question of whether or not orc tracks are likely to be spotted. In fact it is merely a supposition, one designed to support a particular opinion about different types of game play, which leads to this 'orc track objection'.
A variation on [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION]'s objection would seem to be the following:

* The players ask about the colour of the ceiling in the dungeon room;

* The GM, who has no notes on this (in my experience it's rare for module descriptions to note ceiling colours), narrates that it's red;

* The players note the following inconsistency and/or lack of telegraphing - no spots of red paint on the floor or walls were mentioned, and yet there are no drop sheets in the dungeon inventory!​

Or even this old standby:

* The GM's account of the details of the orc village includes the weaponsmith, and a forge, but doesn't itemise any carpentry tools - and yet the orcs are narrated as living in timber dwellings not all of which are in total disrepair!​

I think the Keep in B2 suffers from this "inconsistency", actually; I'm not sure about the village in T1.
 

Sadras

Legend
This is a fine way to play, but elevating it to some higher plane where it is 'more realistic' or 'more consistent' seems like just plain blindness to me.

I believe the idea is that these additional elements (attempting to mirror instances within real life), are to provide a more immersive experience and/or to provide a hardcore form of gaming. At some point these additional elements slow the game down and a balance needs to be struck.

The idea that these additional elements are fixed within the mechanics (daily weather, weapon/armour depreciation...etc) might have some proclaim that their game is 'more realistic' than others whose game does not have such mechanics. Do these systems emulate everything within RL, of course not.

EDIT: I think the argument that everything needs to be as in real life or otherwise nothing is, is a fairly weak one. It does not further conversation or understanding between parties to only speak in absolutes. The use of the word more in "more realism" is indicative that the conversation is not about absolutes.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Ths tells us something about the limits of your imagination.
How, dare I ask?
And of your willingness to believe others, given that everyone posting in this thread who has actually used the technique you're talking about is saying, on the basis of their actual experience, that your concern is not warranted.
Actually, it's possible my concerns are coming from the fact that I *do* believe you guys - or at least what shows up in your game logs and posts - and from that can quickly realize that were I in one of those games the following sequence would very likely happen before long:

- I'd notice inconsistencies and would call them out
- I'd want to know what was being skipped between the "scenes" and whether any of it might have been (or been made to be) relevant had we been told of it (I'd often be saying "Wait a minute", "back it up here", "stop jumping ahead", and the like; and be constantly asking for more detail and-or description of things beyond just the scene being framed)
- after a while of this I'd get frustrated, probably followed by a brief period of angry
- after this I'd eventually come to realize that the only answer is to view that game/campaign as something considerably less than serious, and proceed on that basis.

And before you jump in with your inevitable reply to the bolded bit above: "know what was being skipped" does NOT mean role-playing making breakfast every morning or other such trivialities, it means that instead of jumping straight from one encounter to the next you allow us to explore the potential options and decide what we'll do next.

We're in the bazaar looking for a clue to help sort out my brother and we've decided we won't leave until we find one? Then let us explore the whole bazaar and maybe spend the time to role-play chatting with ten or fifteen merchants if that's what it takes (even if it takes all session or maybe longer!) rather than framing us straight to the feather merchant that turns out to have the clue we seek. Why? Because maybe after the first six merchants we change our minds and decide hey, maybe the clue isn't to be found here after all, let's go look somewhere else. And because maybe while we're doing all this our party thief is busy robbing these same merchants blind while we distract them... :)

EDIT TO ADD: In short, it's a question of pacing: I'd probably want a much slower and more detailed pace of play than this type of game (as evidenced by the various logs I've read) would tend to give.
 
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