Skill Challenges in Essentials

Tymophil · Feb 3, 2019

Good day to all the fair ladies and gentle knights,

I’m reading the rules for Skill Challenges in Essentials (both in the Rules Compendium and Dungeon Master’s Kit, they are the same). I simply don't understand the rules. I seem to lack an information.

For a Complexity 1 Challenge, theparty must accumulate 4 successes... And there is no indication, that I could find, telling me how many primary skill tests could/should be performed.

The example gives no clue whatsoever: the challenge is a failure after the party accumulated 2 successes versus 3 misses. Why didn’t the challenge continue? Why do 3 misses lead to a failure?

Can anyone explain the mechanics behind this result? Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

darkbard · Feb 3, 2019

Tymophil said:
For a Complexity 1 Challenge, theparty must accumulate 4 successes... And there is no indication, that I could find, telling me how many primary skill tests could/should be performed.

Four. The party must succeed at 4 primary skill tests before accruing 3 failures in a Complexity 1 SC.

The example gives no clue whatsoever: the challenge is a failure after the party accumulated 2 successes versus 3 misses. Why didn’t the challenge continue? Why do 3 misses lead to a failure?

Can anyone explain the mechanics behind this result? Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hopefully this explication from poster [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] can provide some clarity for you:

Skill Challenges: What are Primary Checks?
These are zoomed in moments of the greater conflict where the PCs are facing significant adversity and must make a decision under stress, for better or for worse. Something decisive is going to happen to change the situation as a result of their efforts. Players might leverage their Skills (Arcana, Athletics, Nature, et al), Healing Surges or applicable Powers for bonuses, applicable Dailies to step the DC down one (or succeed at the Medium DC automatically for at least one success towards the challenge), coin (often 10 % of an at-level item for an auto-success), or Rituals (counting for at least one auto-success towards the challenge).

A second usage of the same Primary Skill in a challenge should step up the DC (eg from Medium to Hard) or increase it by + 5 if the DC is Hard.

What are Secondary Checks?
These are tighter zoom still than Primary Checks. These are effectively augments to Primary Check efforts (+2 or - 2 success or failure). Players can aid each other or they can augment their own subsequent checks. This is most often accomplished through Skills (though this can also be achieved by the use of an Encounter Power that is not directly related to the challenge).

The number of Secondary Checks available customarily equals that of the complexity of the Skill Challenge (eg 2 for a complexity 2 challenge).

What are Advantages?

These provide a modicum of authorship to players. Thematically, these would be things like luck, digging down deep, when powerful emotions are in play (eg relationships), divine sponsorship, etc. Players gain 2 of these for complexity 3 challenges, 4 for C4 challenges, and 6 for c5 challenges. Mechanically, they can do things such as (1) stepping a DC down (eg from Hard to Medium), (2) allowing a second use of a Skill for a Primary Check at the same DC, (3) cancelling out an accrued Failure, (4) allowing a reroll (this can also be achieved by spending an Action Point).

What are the consequences of Check Failures?

• The character who failed the check loses a healing surge or (in a combat context) takes damage.
• The characters must spend time or money making up for the failure.
• For the rest of the challenge, no character can achieve a success using the same skill that was
used for the failed check.
• lf the challenge takes place in a combat situation, the character who failed the check is dazed or
even stunned until the end of his or her next turn. Or, an opponent is angered and gains a +2 bonus to its next attack roll.

darkbard · Feb 3, 2019

I should add that the overarching play philosophy usually implemented in discussions of 4E, particularly when it comes to Skill Challenges, is fail forward. That is to say, if the party fails the SC, that does not necessarily mean that their attempted action fails completely but rather that it comes with interesting (and negative consequences). For example, if the party fails the SC to track and hunt down the fugitive, failure need not mean they do not find the fugitive; instead, perhaps when they find him, the fugitive has set an ambush for them, or perhaps he is now supported by an additional cadre of ruffians, etc.

The idea here is not that the party cannot fail at their enterprises but rather that play should not grind to a halt as a result of failures: regardless of whether the party succeeds or fails, something interesting should be generated to continue play at the table.

MoutonRustique · Feb 3, 2019

If you're a beginner, a simple way to look at it (IMO) is this :

If the party has one significant objective, then a Skill Challenge is an appropriate mechanic to measure a degree of success.

If the party has multiple significant objectives, offering different ways forward, then a Skill Challenge can be appropriate to indicate success or failure.

Also (IMO, very important) :

If the situation would be a single check multiple times - not a skill challenge.
If only one (or few) character are implicated by the situation - not a good skill challenge.
If there is only one way to approach the situation - not a good skill challenge.
If there is no pressure or opposition - probably not a good skill challenge.

I've found that, with these concepts in mind, it really helps to avoid "jamming" a skill challenge where it isn't appropriate. So then, how does one use a skill challenge ?

There are two main uses :
(A) to offer a mechanical frame for a complex situation (usually non-combat)
(B) to offer an additional objective (often secondary) within a combat

How to use (A) :

Define goal : major obstacle to overcome or main objective
Set the scene - including an immediate obstacle(s) or objective(s) (not the goal)
Ask for approaches
The approaches use will dictate what is the appropriate skill to check
If an action/approach directly tackles the obstacle, it is a primary check
If the action would offer an advantage to overcome the obstacle, it is a secondary check
Apply the effects of the checks to the situation and with regards to the pressure or opposition
Re-set the scene (as above), and go again!

The last two are, arguably, the most important (and difficult) steps to have a great skill challenge.
Some excellent examples of EPIC proportions.

How to use (B):

Define purpose of the challenge
Set "stages" OR multiple approaches to challenge
Be generous with adjudication of actions (not just skills)
Re-set the scene at least once during progress
OR use this post as an excellent example

Rules of Thumb
Primary check : counts towards Success/Failure
Secondary check : will offer a benefit to further check - but does not count towards Success/Failure

Tymophil · Feb 3, 2019

darkbard said:
Four. The party must succeed at 4 primary skill tests before accruing 3 failures in a Complexity 1 SC.

Where in Essentials rulebooks is this information?
There was such a piece of information in the core Dungeon Master Guide, but I cannot find it in any Essentials book that I have read so far.

darkbard · Feb 3, 2019

Rules Compendium page 159: the chart under section 3: Complexity.

Jacob Lewis · Feb 3, 2019

The skill challenge is completed either when a specified number of successful skill checks is achieved or when three failures are reached.

Rules Compendium, pg 158
and
Dungeon Master's Kit, pg 224

It was hiding in the words.

Tymophil · Feb 3, 2019

Jacob Lewis said:
It was hiding in the words.

I was searchnig for it under the complexity heading, as it was given this way in the core rules (DMG p72)... So it is 3 failures for any Skill Challenge. Okay?

Is it better than what was stated in the core rules?

MoutonRustique · Feb 3, 2019

Tymophil said:
I was searchnig for it under the complexity heading, as it was given this way in the core rules (DMG p72)... So it is 3 failures for any Skill Challenge. Okay?

Is it better than what was stated in the core rules?

It's the same. The differences with the core rules are the DC values (which were bad), and some of the guidance on using them (also, on the whole, rather bad).

I would really, really urge you to engage with the forums on this subject - it's a hard one to get from the books alone, and it can lead to some rather disappointing play experiences when done poorly. But it can make the game great by being done well (or even just ok).

If you're planing a game, post a quick summary of your skill challenge situation(s) : you'll get a bunch of good advice (the only downside is that we can get rather wordy on the subject.

)

Retreater · Feb 6, 2019

While I am a 4E apologist, the explanation and implementation of Skill Challenges (both in the Core Rulebooks and in the Essentials line) make my eyes want to pop out. I've been running 4E since the beginning and I still can't get them to work or feel natural. I can't design them. I can't herd my players to following the structure.

I've abandoned them in lieu of simple skill checks that I'm planning out in a narrative format. I'm getting rid of the success/failure ratios, the erasing failures concept, the damage for failed checks (unless it makes sense), etc.

Skill Challenges in Essentials

Tymophil

Explorer

darkbard

Legend

darkbard

Legend

MoutonRustique

Explorer

Tymophil

Explorer

darkbard

Legend

Jacob Lewis

Ye Olde GM

Tymophil

Explorer

MoutonRustique

Explorer

Retreater

Legend

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