Ranged Options for All Classes

Yunru · Feb 12, 2019

Oofta said:
I'm arguing for the DM to not run dragons like simpletons that hang out all day in small caves waiting to be ambushed.

Then you're arguing a strawman so poor I think someone burnt it to ash first.

The Crimson Binome · Feb 12, 2019

Mistwell said:
Of course you can safely dump Dex.

There are a number of ideas proposed to address the ranged weapon issue, but one that hasn't been mentioned deserves some attention. And that is - IT'S OK TO SUCK AT RANGE. You're not going to be good at everything, and it's OK to not be good at range. You don't need Dex to be "minimally competent". You can be plenty competent with a dumped Dex.

I don't know that it's acceptable to be quadratically terrible at a situation you're going to be forced into on a regular basis. Sitting around and not contributing for an hour is pretty boring.

It would be one thing, if everyone was routinely forced into such a situation, and you just had to deal with it. That isn't the case, though, because you could just build a Dexterity fighter instead of a Strength fighter and then you don't have a glaring weakness.

Swarmkeeper · Feb 12, 2019

Saelorn said:
On one end of the room, you have the player party. On the other end of the room, you have the Big Bad. Between them, you have an impassable chasm that is wider than the distance which a javelin can be thrown. I'm not sure where you're finding an interesting alternative.

I (and others) have suggested plenty of things upthread. When I suggested spells that might come in handy, I was greeted with disbelief that the party would act, you know, collaboratively. I have confidence that a group of players with varied characters can come up with something imaginative based on their character sheets and the environment to help overcome the problem.

Oofta · Feb 12, 2019

Yunru said:
Then you're arguing a strawman so poor I think someone burnt it to ash first.

What strawman? There are monsters that fly in the MM. Several of them have options for ranged attacks and are quite intelligent.

Yunru · Feb 12, 2019

Oofta said:
What strawman? There are monsters that fly in the MM. Several of them have options for ranged attacks and are quite intelligent.

That foreshadowing them is somehow playing them dumber.

Oofta · Feb 12, 2019

Yunru said:
That foreshadowing them is somehow playing them dumber.

It may make sense to foreshadow, it may not. Even if you do foreshadow, it doesn't necessarily change anything. Sometimes I like to surprise my players.

In addition I'm not necessarily talking about a bbeg fight. It could just be a run of the mill encounter that happens to be against a flying opponent.

Oofta · Feb 12, 2019

DM Dave1 said:
I (and others) have suggested plenty of things upthread. When I suggested spells that might come in handy, I was greeted with disbelief that the party would act, you know, collaboratively. I have confidence that a group of players with varied characters can come up with something imaginative based on their character sheets and the environment to help overcome the problem.

What if the spells are not available? What if it's a low level party fighting flying kobolds?

I'm all for cooperative gameplay, but there are limits. Not everyone is a team player. If the wizard (if you even have a wizard) is not a team player or never takes support-type spells or simply doesn't have the spell slot available, why should the fighter be left out in the cold?

The Crimson Binome · Feb 12, 2019

DM Dave1 said:
I (and others) have suggested plenty of things upthread. When I suggested spells that might come in handy, I was greeted with disbelief that the party would act, you know, collaboratively. I have confidence that a group of players with varied characters can come up with something imaginative based on their character sheets and the environment to help overcome the problem.

So, even though there's zero guarantee whatsoever that the rest of the party will have any specific solution available, you're still confident that they'll collectively be able to work something out?

I do not share your confidence. While there are countless ways that it could work out, there are just as many where it would not, especially where new players are involved. Creative problem-solving can be a solution, sometimes, but it should not be the only solution.

Mistwell · Feb 12, 2019

Saelorn said:
I don't know that it's acceptable to be quadratically terrible at a situation you're going to be forced into on a regular basis.

It's not that regular really. My fighter dumped Dex, we're at 7th level now, it's only been an issue a handfull of times. Most of the time a javelin works fine. The rare times it has not, I've been able to find something else to do to help the party.

Sitting around and not contributing for an hour is pretty boring.

That has never once happened. It's a role playing game - you can find something creative and interesting to do.

It would be one thing, if everyone was routinely forced into such a situation, and you just had to deal with it. That isn't the case, though, because you could just build a Dexterity fighter instead of a Strength fighter and then you don't have a glaring weakness.

Dex fighters are weaker at melee. And MUCH weaker when grappling or attempting something else athletic. It's OK to have a weakness. Not everything needs to be optimal.

Swarmkeeper · Feb 12, 2019

Saelorn said:
So, even though there's zero guarantee whatsoever that the rest of the party will have any specific solution available, you're still confident that they'll collectively be able to work something out?

I do not share your confidence. While there are countless ways that it could work out, there are just as many where it would not, especially where new players are involved. Creative problem-solving can be a solution, sometimes, but it should not be the only solution.

That's just the thing. It is not all on the DM to solve the players' problems. And if a DM is thinking so narrowly that there is one and only one solution to a problem that will satisfy him, well, that's a recipe for a bad session regardless of how clever the players are.

Counterpoint: Ranged combat can be a solution, sometimes, but it should not be the only solution.