Shades of Eternity
Hero
https://breadthofpopsanity.blogspot.com/2019/02/riddles-and-puzzles-in-gaming-and.html
Been stewing on this and seeing if it works
Been stewing on this and seeing if it works
D&D 5E Riddles and Puzzles in Gaming and Dungeons and Dragons in particular.
- Thread starter Shades of Eternity
- Start date
Quickleaf
Legend
The blogger makes some decent points. There are a couple points that I didn't see addressed:
(1) I aspire to tie my puzzles into the narrative in ways that make sense. For instance, the puzzle in spoilers below was designed by an arrogant necromancer-warlord, so it makes sense that some form of necromancy is involved in its solution & further that the solution is a testament to past battles he'd waged. Additionally, there are hints of the puzzle's story that the DM can share and players can unearth. I've noticed this requires a level of immersion that players aren't always up to (or some players are never up to), so how deep you get into the narrative of a puzzle is something a DM needs to feel out with his/her players.
(2) I vary the difficult/complexity of my puzzles (within the same group of players / same campaign) to keep things fresh. For example, a while back I had a door puzzle that was more thematic than challenging, and the players solved it in maybe 5 minutes of table time, whereas I just ran a complex pattern puzzle yesterday that took about 1 hour of table time (see spoilers below).
(3) Even including 3 clues to multiple/alternative solutions, sometimes players just won't pick up on them, preferring the most direct/obvious course. And that's OK. I've found the best tabletop puzzles are either (a) optional side quests, or (b) provide a way to push through the puzzle at a cost.
For instance, in the puzzle below, there was an underwater point of entry hinted at by my terrain descriptions (repeated "keywords" like "fingerlings of water" and "murky muddy terrain" and "intermittent bubbles in the dark water"). Nope. Players went right to the false door, ended up taking lots of damage & expending spells destroying the face guardian there. A PC creatively used mold earth to push another stone guardian back into the obelisk, thereby reducing immediate threats so they could take their time figuring out the pattern. It worked, but they sure paid a price for it, which affected a massive fight afterward which they didn't get a long rest for, so they went into that fight somewhat depleted. The entire battle with the face guardian could have been avoided by solving the first step of the puzzle, which would cause the face to sink below the surface of the swampy terrain.
(4) Players views are going to vary on a puzzle even if it's well-designed and you DM it pretty well. It's just the nature of puzzles. For example, I received conflicting feedback after this puzzle, with one player saying: "Man, you've got to tone down your puzzles. This was too hard." Another saying: "Yeah, it was hard, but everything made sense in the end. We solved it." And the third: "I actually loved it how it was a false door."
[SBLOCK=Obelisk pattern puzzle]
The Nsi Nkondi & Tithing Obelisk
[SECTION]An overgrown 60-foot-tall stone obelisk rises from where the hilly jungles meet swampy mire of the Nsi Wastes. The western side of the three-sided obelisk is weathered as if by acid rain, and at the base is a blocky carving of a door; the green face of a bald, bearded, horned man is carved into the false door. The other two sides boast macabre bas reliefs of tormented men and lizardfolk worked into the stone, along with an elaborate carving of a 20-foot long multi-legged horned serpent coiling around the obelisk. At the peak, the obelisk ends in a stupa with a horrid little statue of a gaping impish pterodactyl/dilophosaurus hybrid atop.[/SECTION]
After gathering the “Nsi tithe” from river tribes, Ras Nsi’s zombie taxmen would deposit it here. Tribes delinquent in paying taxes would send a representative to engage in silent barter, leaving a surplus of goods/gold as a tax.
GUARDIAN GARGOYLES
Three unique gargoyles (CR 5) known as Nsi nkondi (Chultan for “Nsi’s spirit-inhabited-object-hunters”) are built into the stonework. If a creature makes a mistake in the puzzle, attempts forced entry, or attempts to destroy/damage the obelisk, the Nsi nkondi will become activated to carry out their mission of destruction. The 3 gargoyles (none of which can move more than 5 feet away from the obelisk) include:
The Spouter. Small; AC 15, HP 63, gargoyle resistances/immunities + immune to acid, can’t fly but has Climb (30’) & Slow Fall (-30 damage). Acid Spew: 5-ft range, one creature, DC 15 Dex save or take 21(2d20) acid damage and the creature suffers 5 (1d10) acid damage at the start of each of its turns until immersed in water or succeeding the Dex save at the end of its turn; on a successful save only take half damage, and no ongoing damage; a creature reduced to 0 hit points by this acid is killed as its body is dissolved.
Stone Wyrm. Large; AC 15, HP 91, gargoyle resistances/immunities, can’t fly but has Climb (50’). Multiattack (bite + constrict). Bite: +4 to hit, 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage. Constrict: +4 to hit, 6 (1d8+2) bludgeoning damage and target is grappled (escape DC 14), until this grapple ends, the creature is restrained and the stone wyrm can’t constrict another target, failing an Escape action causes a creature to become restrained and begin petrifying, if not freed from the stone wyrm by the end of its next turn, the creature is petrified.
THE PUZZLE
The false door is a trap. The actual "door" is a stone block on the 5th tier which is constructed with a downward slanting “sill” and is impossible to move unless a creature chips out grips in the stone and is as strong as a frost giant (Str 23) OR the “sill” beneath is lubricated with water or oil. Five feet from the false door are 4 skulls of different colors representing Ras Nsi’s four major battles; they are arranged in a triangular pattern with the gold skull at the center:
White Skull. The skull of the Eshowe chieftain, Showma, is covered in gum arabic and wood ash. Ras Nsi annihilated the entire tribe in retaliation for their attack on Mezro.
Green Skull. The skull of Manawabe, the Great Druid of Chult, is adorned with plant arabesques and animal skins hang beneath it. Manawabe traveled the land awakening beasts and creating sanctuaries; viewing Ras Nsi's logging operations as an affront, he prepared an attack but was ambushed by Ras Nsi.
Black Skull. The skull of Kaverin Ebonhand is covered in tar and adorned with Batiri goblin fetishes, with a pair of ebony hands dangling beneath. It is cold to the touch. Kaverin orchestrated a goblin attack on Mezro in his quest for the Ring of Winter but was killed by Artus Cimber; during this battle Ras Nsi offered unsanctioned assistance.
Gold Skull. The gilded skull of Mezro's champion, Ufuoma, is adorned with a tattered feather headdress. When Ras Nsi attacked Mezro with the intent of overthrowing the insipid King Osaw, it was Ufuoma who led the warriors of Mezro against Ras Nsi’s undead army, ultimately falling in battle before Ras Nsi's army was defeated.
The skulls are activated by being touched by an undead creature, by a creature with the Death Curse, by a creature marked by the Devourer, or by a character using Channel Divinity to Turn Undead or Control Undead. A skull’s eyes glow when it is active. If they're activated in the correct sequence historically (1-4), at each step of the sequence, the obelisk lowers one tier; for example, after activating the white skull, the 1st tier sinks below ground. However, each time a skull is improperly activated in the improper order, the Nsi nkondi attack as the DM sees fit.
The foundation of the obelisk has four holes stoppered with stone plugs. Similarly, each tier’s floor has holes in it. Activating a skull causes a stone shape spell to shrink the corresponding stone plug, allowing swamp water to fill that tier, causing the obelisk to sink. This in turn causes the pumice stone holding the gargoyle heart to rise like an “island.”
THE GARGOYLE'S HEART
Within the 5th tier of the obelisk, the walls are lined with Chultan inscriptions recording tithes collected from various tribes. Upon a pumice dais at the center is a fist-sized black meteorite flecked with adamantine and pulsing with veins of fire – this is the gargoyle's heart the PCs seek. As the water rises, it lifts the pumice dais (and the gargoyle's heart along with it) up to the 5th tier.
Untouched, the heart only weighs 6.2 lbs. Similary, an aarakocra, a creature with the blessing of Aerdrie Faenya or the Wind Dukes (or possibly a chwinga’s charm), or a good character of such purity their “heart weighs less than a feather” can lift the meteorite as if it weighs just 6.2 lbs. However, all others lift it as if it weighs 620 lbs. (requiring Strength 21).[/SBLOCK]
(1) I aspire to tie my puzzles into the narrative in ways that make sense. For instance, the puzzle in spoilers below was designed by an arrogant necromancer-warlord, so it makes sense that some form of necromancy is involved in its solution & further that the solution is a testament to past battles he'd waged. Additionally, there are hints of the puzzle's story that the DM can share and players can unearth. I've noticed this requires a level of immersion that players aren't always up to (or some players are never up to), so how deep you get into the narrative of a puzzle is something a DM needs to feel out with his/her players.
(2) I vary the difficult/complexity of my puzzles (within the same group of players / same campaign) to keep things fresh. For example, a while back I had a door puzzle that was more thematic than challenging, and the players solved it in maybe 5 minutes of table time, whereas I just ran a complex pattern puzzle yesterday that took about 1 hour of table time (see spoilers below).
(3) Even including 3 clues to multiple/alternative solutions, sometimes players just won't pick up on them, preferring the most direct/obvious course. And that's OK. I've found the best tabletop puzzles are either (a) optional side quests, or (b) provide a way to push through the puzzle at a cost.
For instance, in the puzzle below, there was an underwater point of entry hinted at by my terrain descriptions (repeated "keywords" like "fingerlings of water" and "murky muddy terrain" and "intermittent bubbles in the dark water"). Nope. Players went right to the false door, ended up taking lots of damage & expending spells destroying the face guardian there. A PC creatively used mold earth to push another stone guardian back into the obelisk, thereby reducing immediate threats so they could take their time figuring out the pattern. It worked, but they sure paid a price for it, which affected a massive fight afterward which they didn't get a long rest for, so they went into that fight somewhat depleted. The entire battle with the face guardian could have been avoided by solving the first step of the puzzle, which would cause the face to sink below the surface of the swampy terrain.
(4) Players views are going to vary on a puzzle even if it's well-designed and you DM it pretty well. It's just the nature of puzzles. For example, I received conflicting feedback after this puzzle, with one player saying: "Man, you've got to tone down your puzzles. This was too hard." Another saying: "Yeah, it was hard, but everything made sense in the end. We solved it." And the third: "I actually loved it how it was a false door."
[SBLOCK=Obelisk pattern puzzle]
The Nsi Nkondi & Tithing Obelisk
[SECTION]An overgrown 60-foot-tall stone obelisk rises from where the hilly jungles meet swampy mire of the Nsi Wastes. The western side of the three-sided obelisk is weathered as if by acid rain, and at the base is a blocky carving of a door; the green face of a bald, bearded, horned man is carved into the false door. The other two sides boast macabre bas reliefs of tormented men and lizardfolk worked into the stone, along with an elaborate carving of a 20-foot long multi-legged horned serpent coiling around the obelisk. At the peak, the obelisk ends in a stupa with a horrid little statue of a gaping impish pterodactyl/dilophosaurus hybrid atop.[/SECTION]
After gathering the “Nsi tithe” from river tribes, Ras Nsi’s zombie taxmen would deposit it here. Tribes delinquent in paying taxes would send a representative to engage in silent barter, leaving a surplus of goods/gold as a tax.
GUARDIAN GARGOYLES
Three unique gargoyles (CR 5) known as Nsi nkondi (Chultan for “Nsi’s spirit-inhabited-object-hunters”) are built into the stonework. If a creature makes a mistake in the puzzle, attempts forced entry, or attempts to destroy/damage the obelisk, the Nsi nkondi will become activated to carry out their mission of destruction. The 3 gargoyles (none of which can move more than 5 feet away from the obelisk) include:
- Grandfather Plaque – built into the false door, this gargoyle resembles a yawning bearded devil face.
- The Spouter – perched at the obelisk’s peak, looking over the eastern false door, this small gargoyle resembles an impish pterodactyl/dilophosaurus hybrid with vestigial wings.
- Stone Wyrm – coiled around the obelisk, this gargoyle resembles a wingless multi-legged serpentine drake.
The Spouter. Small; AC 15, HP 63, gargoyle resistances/immunities + immune to acid, can’t fly but has Climb (30’) & Slow Fall (-30 damage). Acid Spew: 5-ft range, one creature, DC 15 Dex save or take 21(2d20) acid damage and the creature suffers 5 (1d10) acid damage at the start of each of its turns until immersed in water or succeeding the Dex save at the end of its turn; on a successful save only take half damage, and no ongoing damage; a creature reduced to 0 hit points by this acid is killed as its body is dissolved.
Stone Wyrm. Large; AC 15, HP 91, gargoyle resistances/immunities, can’t fly but has Climb (50’). Multiattack (bite + constrict). Bite: +4 to hit, 5 (1d6+2) piercing damage. Constrict: +4 to hit, 6 (1d8+2) bludgeoning damage and target is grappled (escape DC 14), until this grapple ends, the creature is restrained and the stone wyrm can’t constrict another target, failing an Escape action causes a creature to become restrained and begin petrifying, if not freed from the stone wyrm by the end of its next turn, the creature is petrified.
THE PUZZLE
The false door is a trap. The actual "door" is a stone block on the 5th tier which is constructed with a downward slanting “sill” and is impossible to move unless a creature chips out grips in the stone and is as strong as a frost giant (Str 23) OR the “sill” beneath is lubricated with water or oil. Five feet from the false door are 4 skulls of different colors representing Ras Nsi’s four major battles; they are arranged in a triangular pattern with the gold skull at the center:
White Skull. The skull of the Eshowe chieftain, Showma, is covered in gum arabic and wood ash. Ras Nsi annihilated the entire tribe in retaliation for their attack on Mezro.
Green Skull. The skull of Manawabe, the Great Druid of Chult, is adorned with plant arabesques and animal skins hang beneath it. Manawabe traveled the land awakening beasts and creating sanctuaries; viewing Ras Nsi's logging operations as an affront, he prepared an attack but was ambushed by Ras Nsi.
Black Skull. The skull of Kaverin Ebonhand is covered in tar and adorned with Batiri goblin fetishes, with a pair of ebony hands dangling beneath. It is cold to the touch. Kaverin orchestrated a goblin attack on Mezro in his quest for the Ring of Winter but was killed by Artus Cimber; during this battle Ras Nsi offered unsanctioned assistance.
Gold Skull. The gilded skull of Mezro's champion, Ufuoma, is adorned with a tattered feather headdress. When Ras Nsi attacked Mezro with the intent of overthrowing the insipid King Osaw, it was Ufuoma who led the warriors of Mezro against Ras Nsi’s undead army, ultimately falling in battle before Ras Nsi's army was defeated.
The skulls are activated by being touched by an undead creature, by a creature with the Death Curse, by a creature marked by the Devourer, or by a character using Channel Divinity to Turn Undead or Control Undead. A skull’s eyes glow when it is active. If they're activated in the correct sequence historically (1-4), at each step of the sequence, the obelisk lowers one tier; for example, after activating the white skull, the 1st tier sinks below ground. However, each time a skull is improperly activated in the improper order, the Nsi nkondi attack as the DM sees fit.
The foundation of the obelisk has four holes stoppered with stone plugs. Similarly, each tier’s floor has holes in it. Activating a skull causes a stone shape spell to shrink the corresponding stone plug, allowing swamp water to fill that tier, causing the obelisk to sink. This in turn causes the pumice stone holding the gargoyle heart to rise like an “island.”
THE GARGOYLE'S HEART
Within the 5th tier of the obelisk, the walls are lined with Chultan inscriptions recording tithes collected from various tribes. Upon a pumice dais at the center is a fist-sized black meteorite flecked with adamantine and pulsing with veins of fire – this is the gargoyle's heart the PCs seek. As the water rises, it lifts the pumice dais (and the gargoyle's heart along with it) up to the 5th tier.
Untouched, the heart only weighs 6.2 lbs. Similary, an aarakocra, a creature with the blessing of Aerdrie Faenya or the Wind Dukes (or possibly a chwinga’s charm), or a good character of such purity their “heart weighs less than a feather” can lift the meteorite as if it weighs just 6.2 lbs. However, all others lift it as if it weighs 620 lbs. (requiring Strength 21).[/SBLOCK]
Puzzles suck, seriously.
Every time you expose the players to a puzzle you automatically make them stop role-playing.
Here is the problem. If the player is not very smart but their character is, the player won't be able to solve a puzzle even if the PC would.
If the PC is dumb but the player is smart, can the PC solve the puzzle?
So what's the point of puzzles? How does it enhance the game?
If a Wizard with 20 INT and 20 WIS is in your game, can they roll to solve the puzzle?
Puzzles make people feel awkward. If they can't solve it they feel dumb. You are essentially giving them a pop quiz where everyone can see you plunder.
Do you like puzzles? Fine, have a puzzle night, not a D&D night.
The only puzzles aloud on my table is the "hey guys want to play a heavy Mystery campaign?"
Edit: sorry I came out harsh, but an older DM of mine literally had puzzles every session, sometimes two.
Every time you expose the players to a puzzle you automatically make them stop role-playing.
Here is the problem. If the player is not very smart but their character is, the player won't be able to solve a puzzle even if the PC would.
If the PC is dumb but the player is smart, can the PC solve the puzzle?
So what's the point of puzzles? How does it enhance the game?
If a Wizard with 20 INT and 20 WIS is in your game, can they roll to solve the puzzle?
Puzzles make people feel awkward. If they can't solve it they feel dumb. You are essentially giving them a pop quiz where everyone can see you plunder.
Do you like puzzles? Fine, have a puzzle night, not a D&D night.
The only puzzles aloud on my table is the "hey guys want to play a heavy Mystery campaign?"
Edit: sorry I came out harsh, but an older DM of mine literally had puzzles every session, sometimes two.
Oofta
Legend
Riddles and puzzles are really group dependent, and I usually avoid them. They sound great but most people check out when presented with a puzzle/riddle.
My players have generally fallen into two groups. Those that hate them and those that merely find them annoying meta-gaming. It's usually 1 person at the table that actually solves the problem. The thing is, for most things you do in D&D you can rely on your PCs skills and abilities scores to overcome challenges. It's tough to do that with riddles and puzzles.
So if you do have them, set up alternate ways of solving them using character abilities or at least give hints based on checks if people are struggling.
My players have generally fallen into two groups. Those that hate them and those that merely find them annoying meta-gaming. It's usually 1 person at the table that actually solves the problem. The thing is, for most things you do in D&D you can rely on your PCs skills and abilities scores to overcome challenges. It's tough to do that with riddles and puzzles.
So if you do have them, set up alternate ways of solving them using character abilities or at least give hints based on checks if people are struggling.
Ath-kethin
Elder Thing
Add me to the "groups vary but puzzles generally have not worked for me/mine" pile.
If the puzzle is "how do we scale that wall and retrieve the fragile McGuffin from the perilous cliffs while being pelted with arrows" variety, they can work. That's not so much pizzle solving as strategizing.
But a "Speak 'Friend' and enter" type puzzle is a game-stopper. In almost 30 years of DMing, I have yet to.enxounter the riddle, no matter how simple I thought it was, that didn't just prove a source of frustration and resentment.
YMMV, but tread carefully. And if make sure solving the puzzle isn't the only wat to solve the problem, in the event that your players aren't into it.
As someone said upstream, it's a lose-lose: either your player feels dumb or blows an Intelligence check and feels both dumb and unlucky, or makes the Intelligence check and understands that is just glad it's over. There's a slim chance everything works out, but the best approach I've seen is to make sure solving the puzzle isn't the only way to proceed.
If the puzzle is "how do we scale that wall and retrieve the fragile McGuffin from the perilous cliffs while being pelted with arrows" variety, they can work. That's not so much pizzle solving as strategizing.
But a "Speak 'Friend' and enter" type puzzle is a game-stopper. In almost 30 years of DMing, I have yet to.enxounter the riddle, no matter how simple I thought it was, that didn't just prove a source of frustration and resentment.
YMMV, but tread carefully. And if make sure solving the puzzle isn't the only wat to solve the problem, in the event that your players aren't into it.
As someone said upstream, it's a lose-lose: either your player feels dumb or blows an Intelligence check and feels both dumb and unlucky, or makes the Intelligence check and understands that is just glad it's over. There's a slim chance everything works out, but the best approach I've seen is to make sure solving the puzzle isn't the only way to proceed.
Last edited:
Satyrn
First Post
There once was an old dwarf from Waterdeep
Who was hanged for being a creep.
A ring of misty step
That he won in a bet
Let him spy on the elves in their sleep
( Discover the creep's name, and where he's buried, and you can loot yourself some treasure!)
PS- the meter and rhyme works better in gnomish.
Puzzles don't always have to be a show-stopper, assuming there are other options. In my last adventure, the party was entering the lair of a serpent cult, where they entered a chamber where most of the floor dropped 20 ft to a pit filled with snakes. There were several pillars connected by wooden planks, allowing multiple paths to the other side, and the party was immediately suspicious. They examined the planks to find they were each marked with a word, and assumed (correctly) that the proper path created a phrase.
They had several options: they could try to solve the puzzle, they could attempt to jump across to the pillars (risky for anyone with low Str/Athletics), or they could kill all the snakes (a dangerous prospect for level 3). They decided to try the puzzle, and managed to figure it out with a mixture of player skill, Int/investigation checks to recall clues they learned previously in the adventure, and the druid turning into a mouse (too light to break the weakened planks) to read all the clues in advance. Took about 30 minutes of game time, and was one of the more interesting encounters according to the players.
They had several options: they could try to solve the puzzle, they could attempt to jump across to the pillars (risky for anyone with low Str/Athletics), or they could kill all the snakes (a dangerous prospect for level 3). They decided to try the puzzle, and managed to figure it out with a mixture of player skill, Int/investigation checks to recall clues they learned previously in the adventure, and the druid turning into a mouse (too light to break the weakened planks) to read all the clues in advance. Took about 30 minutes of game time, and was one of the more interesting encounters according to the players.
My group thinks they like puzzles, but the one true puzzle they had (the maze in RoT) got frustrating pretty quick, so I do think the best kind of D&D puzzle is the logistical puzzle: how do we get X while not triggering Y. The goal and traps are obvious but the solution isn’t (and it allows for creative problem solving rather than a eureka moment).
Rod Staffwand
aka Ermlaspur Flormbator
I wouldn't want to play in or run a D&D game that didn't include puzzles. Everything else is just rolling dice.
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