What the heck is going on with the professional RPG industry in regards to Zak S?

Hussar said:

Nice. We're a "mob" now. And you wonder why you are having trouble having this discussion with people.

Click to expand...

I got the word from you Dad!


No really, all funny aside, it's right there in what I quoted from you. You can hardly expect me to think you'd get upset when I was using your own words.

And, how can anyone actually answer that?

Click to expand...

Rhetoricals aren't meant to be answered. But you could answer how you'd feel. How long do you think he should be banished from our "No Bad Peeps Club"? A year? Forever? What would it take for you except his redemption arc was genuine?

(hypothetically presuming he ever bothers trying to become a better person)

Maybe my Magic 8 Ball of future prediction of how much people will accept sexual predators into their hobby will result in better answers.

Click to expand...

Ah, so never. He can never rise above his past misdeeds, he will forever be a sexual predator. Okay, at least there is honesty in that.

Seriously, how is, "We're not going to buy this guy's products, nor do we want this person to be the "face" of our hobby" turned into "pitchforks and fiery brands"?

Click to expand...

Ask Ireland about spicy nazi pug jokes.

In my case, I can see where the ball of progress is rolling and I don't like all of it. I want to be able to make jokes that challenge social conventions and not worry about facing jail time. I want to see the freedom of speech be upheld and not be slowly eroded until facecrime becomes a reality (did you see that smug smirk! J'ACUSSE!).

When you characterize the other side of a discussion as a mob, only interested in mob justice, I'm thinking that perhaps, just perhaps, you're part of the problem. If you are incapable of characterizing the other side of an issue without demonizing and dehumanizing them, don't be shocked when you are no longer invited to the fireside for a chat.

Click to expand...

What about when you describe your own side as a mob*... am I allowed to ostracise you from the fires of civility and discussion? Asking for a friend...


* Yes, I know you were hyperbolically attempting to shame Celebrim over his fears. So... J'ACCUSE!

Sadras said:

Those are hard questions.

Click to expand...

Yes! And the answers are even harder.

For me? I have to separate personal feelings* from ethical considerations on this one. I think yes, he should be allowed to strive for and achieve redemption.



* I always thought Zak was sketchy and the only thing of his I ever read was Maze of the Blue Medusa... so... for that last crime alone I think he should be banished to the cornfields.

If we believe in our society a person is redeemable, then stripping one of his accolades does, for me, seem to counter that belief.

Click to expand...

That's the general direction I'm driving in here. Destroying the statues of yesterday to pretend it never happened is a bad road to go down.

The personal issue I have with this is - separating the artist from the artwork. Do we, don't we?

Click to expand...

I've already been doing it for years, why stop now? I can be informed about where some themes in their work may come from (Lovecraft's racism), but that won't stop me from enjoying their work (Lovecraft's Mythos stories).

Am I not allowed to enjoy Woody Allen's ... Frank Mentzer's ...

Click to expand...

You'll have to pry What's Up Tiger Lily? and BECM from my cold dead grip.

I just want to assert, quite strongly, that the moral and political equality of people - whatever their sex, gender, race, etc - is not a "social convention". It's a social reality that has been fought for, often quite hard. It doesn't need to be "challenged".

evileeyore said:

/snip

I ask in case my future facecrime causes the progress police to ask me to leave social media for the good of my family.

Click to expand...

And, again, demonizing and dehumanizing the other side. And you wonder why you have so much trouble having a conversation?

evileeyore said:

I got the word from you Dad!


No really, all funny aside, it's right there in what I quoted from you. You can hardly expect me to think you'd get upset when I was using your own words./snip

Click to expand...

Wait, what? Umm, you realize that I was quoting [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] there right? In the post where I'm talking about dehumanizing the other side?

So, no, you didn't get the word from me, you got it from [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION]. You folks are the ones insisting that the mob with pitchforks is out to get you for holding your opinions. And, again with the hyperbole. Going to jail for facecrimes? WTF?

Sigh. Yup, par for the course. Derail the discussion as much as possible and then stand back with wide eyed innocence about how it's the other side that's totally unreasonable. I'm just so freaking sick of it.

I'm done.

evileeyore said:

Ask Ireland about spicy nazi pug jokes.

Click to expand...

That was Scotland - in the UK. Ireland is practically a Free Speech zone compared to the UK these days.

pemerton said:

I just want to assert, quite strongly, that the moral and political equality of people - whatever their sex, gender, race, etc - is not a "social convention". It's a social reality that has been fought for, often quite hard. It doesn't need to be "challenged".

Click to expand...

Still a social convention, mostly limited to liberal democracies with Western values. Russia, China, India etc are very different. Go back 50 years it was also different.

Note 50 years ago was also a social convention. Here they just need to change a single piece of legislation from 1993 which requires 51% of the vote.

And that's in one of the most liberal countries in the world.

This doesn't appear to be a thread about the RPG industry any more, so I think it's done.