Bard Faerie Fire in Tier 1

UngeheuerLich · Mar 8, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
Then spell optimization isn't an issue. In fact, the low level bard probably shouldn't waste spell slots on a not-hard encounter.

If you want to compare which of two things are better, especially when there's a resource cost, you want to look at situations where it actually matters.

Actually it´s those easy encounters that actually matter. Spells are not the only resources to lose and spell efficiency in easy encounters is especially important. In difficult fights you use the big guns and there often action efficiency matters even more than spell efficiency.
On the other hand sometimes it is better to blow a big gun in an easy encounter to save you a lot of low level spells for the hard fight to win over time...
after we got used to using short rests and long rests appropriately (we made long rests harder to come by), spells slots in easy fights started to matter.

TaranTheWanderer · Mar 8, 2019

Sorry for the temporary off-topic post but...

rgoodbb said:
I have so far played three Bards in 5th, (which does not make me an expert by any means) but the most useful first level spell (after first level only (sleep)), for me by far was Bane. I like FF. I don't mind DW but as mentioned before, the board must be set just right to pull that off, Bane. Bane man, especially when you can mix a little Mockery and maybe even Cutting Words. Those Orcs are going to have a bad, bad day. Tight, safe targeting 3 targets anywhere within 30 feet of you, Bad, bad charisma save.

Someone previously mentioned testing FF against Bane. I think that is a much more interesting comparison than Tashas' or DW, even though one is more buff and the other debuff. You give me 4 orcs, I will cast Bane on 3 of them or all of them if higher level within tier 1.

I'm not a maths guy so cannot run the numbers, so this is just my experience, but if you are thinking of playing a Bard, Bane would be my absolute first pick, and then Healing word, and then Disguise self for shenanigans and just add one more for flavour.

Ps. I cannot wait to reach a level where I can try Synaptic Static, Bane, Cutting Words and Mockery. That will be a good day indeed!

Interesting. I’m a bard newb and I would like to recruit you to peruse this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...how-much-can-I-dump-combat-stats&daysprune=14

Please help me kit out my bard and help advise me on spells. I will pay you double whatever [MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION] paid.

Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Guest 6801328 · Mar 8, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Actually you want to look at situations where you will actually use it. In a hard battle you will use a level 2 spell. Surely your not having more than 2-3 hard battles per day?

In the post I was responding to...in the paragraph I was responding to...you said Level 1-2 characters. So no 2nd-level slots.

But let me make sure we're on the same page: the question at hand is which of these two spells is the better spell, defined by you as "a lower-level spell for a level 3-4 bard to only be used in non-hard encounters on a typical fight in order to save resources for the rest of the party?"

In that case the answer is Sleep.

FrogReaver · Mar 8, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
In the post I was responding to...in the paragraph I was responding to...you said Level 1-2 characters. So no 2nd-level slots.

But let me make sure we're on the same page: the question at hand is which of these two spells is the better spell, defined by you as "a lower-level spell for a level 3-4 bard to only be used in non-hard encounters on a typical fight in order to save resources for the rest of the party?"

In that case the answer is Sleep.

No, that wasn't the post you responded to. The post you responded to was a post where I was responding to a poster that listed a bunch of proposed encounters as typical that were much to strong for level 1-2 characters. Maybe if you keep up with the conversation you wouldn't be getting so confused.

Guest 6801328 · Mar 9, 2019

FrogReaver said:
No, that wasn't the post you responded to. The post you responded to was a post where I was responding to a poster that listed a bunch of proposed encounters as typical that were much to strong for level 1-2 characters. Maybe if you keep up with the conversation you wouldn't be getting so confused.

I'm trying! The parameters change so fast it makes me dizzy.

FrogReaver · Mar 9, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
I'm trying! The parameters change so fast it makes me dizzy.

That's fair. lol. I try to indulge others when possible and it can make things get a little muddied.

I prefer looking at level 2 because there's a lot less special abilities that need accounting for so the comparisons are a lot less complex at these levels. If you can propose a fairly representative encounter for 4 level 2 characters I would love to take a look at it.

Keep in mind I already acknowledge that FF is better than DW against large groups of 8-12 so proposing that kind of encounter won't really be helpful. But anything else I'm highly interested. It can even be a hard encounter...just not cherry picked over the top hard.

At that point I won't be talking about level 2 spells for the hard fight.

Or if you would prefer pick a fairly representative encounter easy-medium difficulty and I will examine it with other characters not using special abilities. Anything above easy to medium difficulty though and the other pc's will be using daily and short rest abilities too and then things get a lot harder to analyze.

Guest 6801328 · Mar 9, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Keep in mind I already acknowledge that FF is better than DW against large groups of 8-12

That's big of you.

FrogReaver · Mar 9, 2019

Elfcrusher said:
That's big of you.

That wasn't so big of you.

Guest 6801328 · Mar 9, 2019

FrogReaver said:
That wasn't so big of you.

Well, come on, man. It’s been pretty clearly demonstrated that FF is superior in the 4 orc example. And your response is to “acknowledge” that it’s better against 8+?

Anyway, I’m done. Peace out.

Hussar · Mar 9, 2019

Instead of all this arguing about what is "representative", why would you not simply look at level 1-4 adventures? I mean, that gives you what the designers think are "standard" adventures.

Funnily enough, despite playing Ravenloft, Phandelver, and Dragon Heist, I have yet to see a single orc.