Too weird for town....

jgsugden · Mar 18, 2019

Oofta said:
But as an RPG, it's up to the DM to craft a world that makes sense. Quasimodo, Knott the Brave and The Beast are (or were) human or halfling. Drizzt lives in a world where racial alignments are thrown out the window now and then ... unless it's convenient to the more recent set of books where somehow goblins are evil because your goddess told you they were except your husband is a member of an "evil" race but he's okay because the gods decided to resurrect y'all so you could sell more books.

If alignments are "fuzzy suggestions" or ignored in your world, that's fine. But one of the things that bugs me about FR (and the reason I've stopped reading Salvatore) is that sometimes it's a hard and fast rule and other times it's more like The Pirates Code. More of a guideline really.

In a thing that has been touched by as many hands as the FR has, you have to expect some dissonance. Look at the history of Spider-man in the comics... crazy changes happen all the time.

If we're hung up on Salvatre, I will point out that he addressed these very issues multiple times in his series of FR books. There is a story about Drizzt and a goblin that tackles the core of these issues - it is over a decade old.

Regardless: This is a common challenge in stories and there are a lot of ways to address it. Some of them contrast with the rest of the world. Others struggle to tell it within the context of the world and without being 'preachey'. As a DM, there are a lot of ways for you to make this an interesting story for the entire group. This is something I felt has been addressed in a good approach in the second Critical Role campaign. A goblin PC created challenges and interesting story options for them. Recently, they even turned the whole concept a bit upside down... (avoiding spoilers).

To me, the job of the DM is to crft an engaging world in which the players and DM can come together to tell amazing stories. If a player wants to have a 'monster PC' storyline, the DM should look for ways to make it work. It isn't just about the DM dictating the world to the players - the DM crafts it with and for the players.

Oofta · Mar 18, 2019

jgsugden said:
In a thing that has been touched by as many hands as the FR has, you have to expect some dissonance. Look at the history of Spider-man in the comics... crazy changes happen all the time.

If we're hung up on Salvatre, I will point out that he addressed these very issues multiple times in his series of FR books. There is a story about Drizzt and a goblin that tackles the core of these issues - it is over a decade old.

Regardless: This is a common challenge in stories and there are a lot of ways to address it. Some of them contrast with the rest of the world. Others struggle to tell it within the context of the world and without being 'preachey'. As a DM, there are a lot of ways for you to make this an interesting story for the entire group. This is something I felt has been addressed in a good approach in the second Critical Role campaign. A goblin PC created challenges and interesting story options for them. Recently, they even turned the whole concept a bit upside down... (avoiding spoilers).

To me, the job of the DM is to crft an engaging world in which the players and DM can come together to tell amazing stories. If a player wants to have a 'monster PC' storyline, the DM should look for ways to make it work. It isn't just about the DM dictating the world to the players - the DM crafts it with and for the players.

I think comparing a D&D campaign to a comic book that has been around for more than half a century is pointless.

As far as Salvatore ... yes at one point Drizzt met what he thought was a "good" goblin. Then in a recent book his wife flat out states that goblins are evil because her deity told her so. His response? "Huh. Guess I was wrong." It's literally less than a page in the book that totally upends several previous story arcs.

Whether a racial alignment is "nature", "nurture" or some combination of both is up to the DM. Salvatore/FR tries to have it both ways and, in my opinion, fails.

In my campaigns, evil creature are evil by nature. Orcs are sentient but not human. I'm not going to be brow-beat into agreeing that I am running my campaign "wrong" just because you run your campaign differently.

Yes, alignment is a simplification. I'm assuming that all orcs are evil because the MM says they are. It's no more a simplification than any number of things like AC or HP. Want to house rule that orcs aren't always evil or have a society where obviously evil monsters run around civilized lands? Have fun.

But it's also common in stories that some things are just monsters. Nobody would expect a xenomorph from Aliens to integrate into society, why the insistence that a DM must allow all races?

Hussar · Mar 18, 2019

Oofta said:
It may be a "legacy notion" in your campaign. In mine it's simply that I don't think it would be logical for your local neighborhood tavern to look like the cantina in Star Wars.

If you run the game as written, there are evil races. Races where effectively every member is the equivalent of a murdering sociopath that can be identified on sight. I find it hard to believe they'd be able to walk around freely in most areas. If every troll anyone has ever encountered immediately tries to eat the people encountered, a troll in the city would be no more welcome than a great white shark in a swimming pool.

Meh, not in 5e. Alignment in 5e is a suggestion and not every member of a race is a murdering sociopath.

Like I said, it's far more legacy notions and more often than not, a DM issue. Players frankly don't care most of the time. Like I said, if it's not fun for the players, then why bother?

Hussar · Mar 18, 2019

Oofta said:
/snip
But it's also common in stories that some things are just monsters. Nobody would expect a xenomorph from Aliens to integrate into society, why the insistence that a DM must allow all races?

Whoa there, slow down. Who has even remotely suggested that DM's allow all races? Where did that come from?

This conversation presumed that DM has ok'd the race in the first place but then wants to somehow force his ideas of a "disadvantage" onto the player to ensure that the player is "playing right". Because, obviously, there is only one true way of playing a campaign and any suggestion that there might be other ways must be met with hostility.

.

Oofta · Mar 18, 2019

Hussar said:
Whoa there, slow down. Who has even remotely suggested that DM's allow all races? Where did that come from?

This conversation presumed that DM has ok'd the race in the first place but then wants to somehow force his ideas of a "disadvantage" onto the player to ensure that the player is "playing right". Because, obviously, there is only one true way of playing a campaign and any suggestion that there might be other ways must be met with hostility. .

Well, you say that alignment doesn't really mean anything, and that it's all just a "legacy" notion so therefore the logical conclusion is that any race is allowed since alignment doesn't matter. But then if a DM is up front about how [monstrous race X] is viewed in their world, they're a bad DM. Personally I just don't allow races that don't make sense, which includes non-evil dragonborn because they don't fit my campaign.

As far as other ways of playing, I don't know how much more often I can say it. It's your game do what makes sense. I'm just posting why it doesn't make sense to me for my game only to be told that I just need to "rise to the challenge" and that I'm just stuck with outdated "legacy notions". The implied theme here is that if I (and anyone else who agrees with me) was a good DM they'd work it out.

Or maybe I'm just cranky because it's a Monday. :hmm:

jgsugden · Mar 19, 2019

Something to consider here - most great fantasy stories are allegories. The elements of the story stand in for something else, either intentionally or accidentally.

When the story is not about the enemy, but the enemy is merely a force that opposes the protagonist, we don't need much depth for that enemy in the story. It can be superficial, simplistic and a faceless evil to be slaughtered.

If, however, that enemy has a more substantial role in the story, they need more depth of personality. They need to provoke thought, which means they need to have contradiction and surprises.

Personally, in my games, I tend to not think in terms of Good and Evil at lower levels too much. There are a few things that are truly evil - undead, demons and devils - but beyond that, there is usually a lot of human sentiment behind the bad guys in my world.

oreofox · Mar 19, 2019

Oofta said:
Well, you say that alignment doesn't really mean anything, and that it's all just a "legacy" notion so therefore the logical conclusion is that any race is allowed since alignment doesn't matter. But then if a DM is up front about how [monstrous race X] is viewed in their world, they're a bad DM. Personally I just don't allow races that don't make sense, which includes non-evil dragonborn because they don't fit my campaign.

As far as other ways of playing, I don't know how much more often I can say it. It's your game do what makes sense. I'm just posting why it doesn't make sense to me for my game only to be told that I just need to "rise to the challenge" and that I'm just stuck with outdated "legacy notions". The implied theme here is that if I (and anyone else who agrees with me) was a good DM they'd work it out.

Or maybe I'm just cranky because it's a Monday.

I don't know where you got "any race is allowed" just because he said alignment is a "legacy notion". It is all dependant on the setting and story. Just because "alignment is a legacy notion" doesn't mean you HAVE to allow goblins and orcs as PC races. Also doesn't mean all goblins and orcs can't be evil in your setting. However, if you did allow goblins and orcs as PC races, many players will view that as an invitation to play one without being chased by torches and pitchforks. At least when not in the ruralest of backwoods villages. If you allow a player to play a goblin, going into a New York-like city shouldn't typically incite such a reaction. Same with the areas with frequent interactions with goblins that aren't hostile in nature.

If you allow monsters as PC races, don't dick over the player just because they decided to play one. Don't want goblin PCs just because they are in Volo's Guide? Don't use them. There is nothing wrong with saying no. Just don't be a dick.

Yardiff · Mar 19, 2019

Players wanting to play monster races should ALWAYS clear it with the GM.

At least that my opinion on the subject.

Oofta · Mar 19, 2019

oreofox said:
I don't know where you got "any race is allowed" just because he said alignment is a "legacy notion". It is all dependant on the setting and story. Just because "alignment is a legacy notion" doesn't mean you HAVE to allow goblins and orcs as PC races. Also doesn't mean all goblins and orcs can't be evil in your setting. However, if you did allow goblins and orcs as PC races, many players will view that as an invitation to play one without being chased by torches and pitchforks. At least when not in the ruralest of backwoods villages. If you allow a player to play a goblin, going into a New York-like city shouldn't typically incite such a reaction. Same with the areas with frequent interactions with goblins that aren't hostile in nature.

If you allow monsters as PC races, don't dick over the player just because they decided to play one. Don't want goblin PCs just because they are in Volo's Guide? Don't use them. There is nothing wrong with saying no. Just don't be a dick.

Which is why I personally ban monstrous races. But I will warn people if certain races are discriminated against in a particular region for whatever reason. If they still choose to play that race, it will be with full knowledge of what they're getting into.

So if I tell a player that wood elves are particularly mistrusted in the region because there's been a great deal of tension of late, I don't see a problem with it. It's part of the texture of the campaign, part of what makes it not just a bland garbage dump of ideas and races. If they do choose to run a wood elf then maybe there's a great story arc there. Maybe they can heal the rift, or find out what's behind the tension. But they do have to accept that sometimes they won't be allowed into the tavern, and that some people will refuse to do business with them.

Oofta · Mar 19, 2019

jgsugden said:
Something to consider here - most great fantasy stories are allegories. The elements of the story stand in for something else, either intentionally or accidentally.

And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes orcs are just evil because I don't house rule monster alignments. Sometimes it's more fun to just know who the bad guys are and not worry about wiping them out. Sometimes it's more fun to find out that the orcs aren't the only bad guys.

To imply that you can't have depth to a campaign because some races are by nature evil is insulting.

Too weird for town....

jgsugden

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Oofta

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Hussar

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Hussar

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Oofta

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Yardiff

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Oofta

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