Perception should be an intelligence proficiency

CubicsRube

Hero

• Mar 16, 2019

• #1

I've been thinking lately about the much bemoaned obsolence of INT as a useful stat for most classes this edition and I feel like there is one simple thing tjat would go a long way to having people seriously consider not dumping it: make perception an intelligence proficiency.

What this means:
Druids, monks, rangers, and cleric are no longer the typically "perceptive" classes.
Wizards, eldritch knights, arcane tricksters are.

For some of you, that may grate, others perhaps it may not.

It has some support. INT saves are often used to resist illusions.


That's my thought on balancing wisdom and intelligence somewhat, and how i would likely do it if i were running standard 5e.

Hiw would you all add value to INT?

 

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not-so-newguy

I'm the Straw Man in your argument

• Mar 16, 2019

• #2

How about intelligence granting additional skills equal to the ability bonus?

 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

• Mar 16, 2019

• #3

We do a couple of things:

We use Intelligence modifier as additional language, tools, or kits. We did use it for skills, but that seemed too valuable so they were removed. If you have a penalty, you lose one as well.
We have Initiative can be based off from Dex, Int, or Wis (player's choice). Usually one of those three is decent for most builds, and it takes some of the emphasis off of Dex as all-important.

We are also considering switching the class dependency a bit, since right now only Wizards need it. Having it go to Sorcerers, Warlock, and even Rogues has been discussed.

Personally I find balancing it out with Charisma is the bigger issue. Charisma went from being a dump stat to vital to 3 classes (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock) and still important to others (Paladin, Rogue). We've never seen an issue with the importance of Wisdom being too much or not enough.

 

Last edited: Mar 16, 2019

Giltonio_Santos

Hero

• Mar 16, 2019

• #4

I don't think Intelligence needs any help. Much like Charisma, it just commands skills that tend to disappear with certain playing styles. My players have come to value it thanks to the necessity of identifying/understanding arcane or religious scripts, harvesting components for poisons and healing potions, or even knowing the value of the gems they loot from the bodies of fallen opponents. If you're giving that kind of knowledge for free or making it irrelevant in the fulfillment of their goals, they're right in finding something else to do with their positive ability modifiers.

 

DEFCON 1

Legend

Supporter

• Mar 16, 2019

• #5

I use the Variant Ability Score variant for skills, thus I have players make INT (Perception) checks all the time when they are actively searching for people. I use WIS (Perception) for their instinctual "danger sense" of whether they notice foes out in the wild, usually determined as their Passive Perception.

 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

• Mar 16, 2019

• #6

I think Intelligence is fine as is. Here's what typically results in an Intelligence check in my games, when the approach to a goal described by the player has an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence of failure:

• Attempting to recall useful lore about something
• Make deductions based on clues such as when trying to figure out a trap before disarming it or trying to figure out a secret door's working before it can be opened
• Communicate wordlessly during a social interaction challenge
• Using a disguise kit
• Forging a document (forgery kit)

The first two in the above list of tasks are the most common since players in my games will try to verify their assumptions before acting on them. Communicating wordlessly comes up when the PCs want to get something across to another PC or NPC without another NPC picking up on it. Disguises and forgery are less common, but if those tools come with the character's background, it will inevitably see use. I think there was about a half dozen Intelligence checks in my session just last night.

So, to "add value," I suppose you can just make sure that there's a good reason to try to recall useful lore (e.g. monster weaknesses, background on NPCs for use in social interaction, etc.). Then just make sure you include plenty of traps and secret doors. You will see the players then attempting these tasks and, whenever it's appropriate, Intelligence checks will follow.

 

LordEntrails

Hero

• Mar 16, 2019

• #7

Run Perception and Investigation the way I do, which is the way I think they are intended to be used.

Perception tells you something is wrong. It tells you their is a draft, or scuff marks, or that something is off. It never tells you what or how. Sure, perception tells you the wall has a draft that might be a secret door, but without investigation you will never find where the door is or how to open it.

Sure, perception tells you their is a trip wire across the hallway or a switch/trigger on the door hinge. But you will never figure out how to bypass or disarm it unless you use investigation.

Perception tells you the gate guard as a tattoo half hidden on his forearm, but only intelligence is going to tell you anything about it.

Low Int is fine in my games, but don't expect to know why. Go ahead and be a bull in a china shop, but their will be no finesse or innuendo etc.

 

I

Immortal Sun

Guest

• Mar 17, 2019

• #8

Putting too much thought into the why of any given stat is a sure way to drive one to madness.

To KISS the solution, I'd just give people the option to choose Int or Wis for Perception.

 

G

guachi

Hero

• Mar 17, 2019

• #9

If Perception were an Intelligence skill animals would be awful at it. Therefore, it should stay a Wisdom skill.

If it's the kind of thing an animal could detect, it's a Perception skill check.

If it's the kind of thing a human would be better at detecting/deducing it's an Investigation check.

 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

• Mar 17, 2019

• #10

CubicsRube said:

I've been thinking lately about the much bemoaned obsolence of INT as a useful stat for most classes this edition and I feel like there is one simple thing tjat would go a long way to having people seriously consider not dumping it: make perception an intelligence proficiency.

What this means:
Druids, monks, rangers, and cleric are no longer the typically "perceptive" classes.
Wizards, eldritch knights, arcane tricksters are.

For some of you, that may grate, others perhaps it may not.

It has some support. INT saves are often used to resist illusions.


That's my thought on balancing wisdom and intelligence somewhat, and how i would likely do it if i were running standard 5e.

Hiw would you all add value to INT?

Click to expand...

I think combat related skills get chosen in combat focused games. As it stands perception is useful for combat (surprise sucks) and no skill for int really helps tell encounter after encounter like perception does. If you take perception away from wisdom based classes then suddenly they also don't have a combat related skill. All you have done is shift the problem to a different set of classes. Now if you find Druids, Clerics, Rangers and monks to be way stronger than Wizards, Elrditch Knights and Arcane Tricksters that might be a solution. I don't really feel there is a power difference between those classes though.

So instead my solution would be to give INT skills more usefulness for combat situations. There's a variety of ways to accomplish this. Monster knowledge both mechanical and tactical helps. Allowing investigation to be used to bypass encounters is another way.

Throwing more int based challenges, character puzzles that knowledge skills can help overcome and allow encounters etc to be bypassed.

There's a lot of tools at your disposal. Just be creative.