Awards other than XP

77IM said:

One of the things that always bugged me about D&D advancement was that you can't cast spells above your level, period. If you have enough XP to cast 3rd-level spells, you can cast fireball just fine. If you don't, you can't, no matter how long you've been researching it in your tower, no matter how hard you try, no matter how important it is. That seems weird and contrary to the genre. It's also inconsistent with most combat and skill activities -- anybody can attempt to swing a greatsword or pick a lock, it's just a question of success rate. So in a super-slow-advancing campaign, I'd come up with a way for a spellcaster of any level to try casting higher-level spells, but it would be risky, with a real possibility that you fry yourself.

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You can attempt to cast a spell above your level - from a scroll. The Wizard IMC Lady Aeridnis
just acquired a bunch of rare spell scrolls - she can either cast them from the scrolls, or wait until high enough level to transcribe them. I think it works well.

So you don't like hitpoints, and you don't like experience points or leveling. I say this in absolutely the most non-snarky and respectful way possible, but: have you considered trying an RPG other than D&D, rather than kitbashing D&D to be what you want? There are plenty of games out there that don't use either hitpoints or experience points.

jayoungr said:

So you don't like hitpoints, and you don't like experience points or leveling. I say this in absolutely the most non-snarky and respectful way possible, but: have you considered trying an RPG other than D&D, rather than kitbashing D&D to be what you want? There are plenty of games out there that don't use either hitpoints or experience points.

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I was having this discussion with a friend earlier today, and a couple things came up. There is a lot I do like about D&D, first of all. I like the mechanics in general and the structure of play at the moment. I don't think issues of steep leveling and the way the game changes because of it are insurmountable, especially given that not ever iteration of D&D has suffered from these problems to the same degree. Also, there is something to be said for the network effect. It is much easier to find players for D&D, simply put.

That said, I am currently running Savage Worlds, in part because I am writing for that game and in part to see if another game will fill the D&D shaped hole in my heart.

In an old campaign, there was a goblin leader named Big Boom that could case a fireball. He was only 3rd level but as an enemy he could do things the PCs could not. After he cast the fireball, everyone was scared but he only had cantrips and a read magic left since he used his big stuff, otherwise he would have has a few more spells. NPCs in your campaign can do things that the PCs cannot, but be open to let them do some things instead of gaining levels. Magic items are easy. A ring that lets the pc cast 1 spell at a higher level slot or such.

My group also likes to start a new campaign every 2 years in one group and every year in the other. The players enjoy the lower levels and end around level for the main group and likely level 5-6 for the off group. The players also like to play new concepts and try new classes and such. The games do not really get into the PCs having their own keeps and such though. The last group rebuilt the keep in Phandalin, but that was more an end thing and never really got into playing that up. They did meet the next group that started though, since they started in Phandalin after the gold boom started. It seems like your players want more of the bases of power and politics over my group killing things with little sub-plot.

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Content.

If I’m spending a year at level 3, it better be a year filled with all manner of people, places, and plots.

If I’m spending a year at level 3 in the same town, fighting the same band of goblins, for the same ungrateful NPCs, then my interest is as blunt as my sword.

The award is content.

Well, if you do not like leveling up and the benefits that come with it above 3rd that cuts out a **lot** of things from bring considered.

Also, you are wanting to use the 5e nature to draw in existing DnDbplayers...hmmm...

Sounds like the number one reward will be magic items. Anynitemsxeith spells above second level or traits above what a 3rd will get will be gold. You will move my betcrsther quickly to see a more classic 1e "stack as many items as possible" where soon as it can the "real power" of a vharsctervis in its gear not its "character".

Items with bonuses to hit will be critical cuz sooner thst later the ability to have higher ACs from purchased armor just frustrating the tier-1 bonuses to- hit will become a thing.

With only human variants ever getting access to feats, and then only one, its likely goggles of night will be really needed to deal with a whole lot of the DnD adventure types. (Unless you plan to bait-n-seitch suck in those DnD players but then not run a whole lot of the typical DnD adventure types.)

One obvious gain is allies, pets and minions. Having them gives you a massive boost in party durability and in sctions and they wont be far behind the PCs at all. In a more advancing game, the minions one csn easily come by become just a distraction, as a "bandit or "guard" rapidly gets to be not sustainable and ineffective against the threat. But with everyone locked in at third, spending gold and gesrnon a trio of bandits or guards per PC makes do much sense you have to expect it. That moves the game into more platoon style play than squad style play pretty quickly with players running and enlivening three to four characters each not just their PC. (I might recommend borrowing and skewing off Ars Magica a bit and having the "grogs be more of a shared pool, not necessarily assigned to one PC each. But each can work.)

So, yeah, one of my first resource hunts as a PC likely would be hitting an acolyte, and a couple bandits or guards. Since Charisma likely plays a role in their recruitment, the Cha classes jump out. Bard seems to be so very obvious.

Reynard said:

Characters will start at third level and gain XP very slowly in both real time and game time, such that PCs will gain levels at a rate of about one per real world year (which might map to, say, five or ten years in play).

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I would totally enjoy playing in such a game.

The obvious in-game reward would be treasure. Special equipment and magic items immediately useful, money to give more freedom to the players.

Stuff like castles, titles or businesses (either granted or bought) are nice ideas. Notice that depending how you handle them, there can be anything from mere cosmetic additions ("You have a castle somewhere in Amn") to such a complication that becomes a burden ("You have a castle somewhere in Amn, and now you have to furnish it, staff it, budget it, maintain it, defend it, and generate revenue to pay taxes for it. But you can use it too!"). Just agree with your players how in-depth they want it to be.

One other thing that can be used as reward and I haven't noticed among suggestions is recipes. This could be something to use alongside the Wizard's spells scribing, which is the only thing in the game (besides downtime learning tools and languages) which adds to a PC's abilities regardless of XP.

Finally, besides rewarding the PCs, we should think in terms of rewarding the players I think the main benefits of slow level advancement include the opportunity to focus on the narrative without worrying about updating your PC with the next best level up picks. So how about encouraging the players to write down their narrative achievements? Record your own list of defeated monsters, explored locales, completed quests etc. in a sort of diary, and watch it grow

I've always hated how fame and power were connected to level. Why does a PC have to be 10th to own a Fortress? Low level NPCs have riches(dukes and kings) and fame, so why can't PCs?

So, I second all the suggestions to let them use their wealth to buy fancy houses and increase their standing. Let them accumulate a reputation (fame or infamy), either by straight RP or via some kind of reputation system. Have some factions they can go up in ranks or let them create their own. Let the bard run for mayor or the fighter rise in the ranks of a mercenary guild. None of this stuff requires levels.

For leveling, you could add some minor milestones: at certain points during the game, or for a fraction of the amount of xp they need to level, they could buy a single new class ability. Maybe the fighter is 4th and earns enough exp to buy an extra attack or the wizard buys an extra spell slot.

The easiest way would be to take the amount of xp for their next level and divide it by the number of abilities they get, but it might require a bit of tweaking depending on the power of the ability. Proficiency bonuses only come when they fully get their new level.

Reynard said:

Keeping in mind that my main goal is to make it so that the elements present in the setting on day 1 are viable on day 750, and that PCs do not "outgrow" their position in the world or break the previously established boundaries of the setting, what kinds of rewards in play do you think would keep players happy?

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This is not broadly answerable. Each player has their own desires, and not everyone will feel engaged by the same set of rewards. YOu need to ask or otherwise know your players to really answer the question for your table.

But, let us liken this to... giving gifts to adults. Adults are not usually in a state where they actually need (or even have room in their homes) for a lot of *stuff*. Once you've set up house for a while, you eventually accumulate what you need and... then what? What do you get them as a gift?

There are two basic answers - you give experiences (like, tickets to a show or concert) or consumables.

In D&D, consumables are easy - charged magic items, potions, scrolls, money, and so on.

What kind of character development and "advancement" can exist aside from level gain to reinforce the goal while still giving players a sense of accomplishment and growth?

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D&D's class-based system is great for many things. It isn't great for this, unfortunately. My first approach to running a game that is based on character development rather than character power advancement would be to use a system that works in those terms. FATE-based games are good at this. Some Cortex+ games are.

In D&D, a character is defined in terms of their stats, race, and class, from which all their abilities are derived.

In FATE games, as an example, a character is generally defined in terms of Skill points and Aspects (which are verbal descriptors that can be used for bonuses). In FATE-games, you can have a game in which characters don't earn new skill points quickly (or at all), but who can shuffle their skill points around over time and changing their Aspects in response to events in play. So, you can start with a wild, knife-wielding gang thug, and end with a disciplined gun-toting mob hit man, changing the character's mechanics over time, without raising the character's net power level.

This is difficult to do in D&D, as we don't have a good handle on the atomic elements of the character's abilities. We don't have a way to transition a character from one sub-class to another, or from one class to another.