Can Sharpshooter be used with a Net?

Mort · Mar 20, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Your skipping a lot of important intermediate steps to arrive at that conclusion. What makes you think that adding the +10 means that mod damage also needs added? From my perspective that's the gap that makes it seem like your not really making a point about the topic at hand.

Please explain how adding SS damage but not adding mod damage makes any sense.

If the net does 0 damage then why is it not treated exactly the same as a blow gun which does 1 damage (and therefore clearly qualifies for both mod damage and SS damage)?

As for skipping important steps, you have never demonstrated in the slightest how "-" and "no damage" = "0." And no "everybody knows..." Doesn't cut it.

As, clearly, everyone, including sage advice, does not know.

FrogReaver said:
Not when your making a case for your opinion and that point has nothing to do with that opinion.

My opinion is that the net is not going to do damage under this scenario. In your several posts you have yet to make even 1 point that shows this opinion is misplaced (you just keep going ad hominem instead).

DND_Reborn · Mar 20, 2019

Here is a simple question that might help: Since using a net is a ranged attack, you add your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll, but are you adding the Dexterity modifier to damage?

Answers:

YES: We add Dexterity modifier to the net's damage, which we rule is 0 + Dexterity modifier. We will also allow SS to increase the damage using the -5/+10 feature. A Rogue could also use a net to inflict Sneak Attack damage as well. We (likely) play the damage is bludgeoning.

NO: A net does not have a damage of 0, it does not inflict damage at all and that is why it has no damage type; there is no damage listed. Since it does not inflict damage, we can't use the SS feature to increase its damage as there is no damage being dealt to increase. A Rogue cannot use a net to inflict Sneak Attack damage, either.

Whichever way you play it, just be consistent if this is how your table is going to play it to avoid later confusion.

Charlaquin · Mar 20, 2019

0 is a number. If a net dealt 0 damage, it would be dealing an amount of damage, to which things could be added. But the net does not deal 0 damage. It does not deal damage at all. This ability to draw this distinction is one of the reasons that having a number to represent a value of naught is useful.

Paul Farquhar · Mar 20, 2019

Mort said:
I choose to see it as "not applicable" as opposed to "undefined" as in - a net simply doesn't do damage so you can't make it do more damage. Not going to argue that's RAW (though it has been interpreted that way by the sage), but it makes sense to me.

SS already gives a decent benefit for the net - using at 15' without disadvantage and ignoring cover. SS certainly doesn't need any more improvement!

How I would "choose to see it" and what the rules say are two different things. As I have said, as a one off situation, I would be inclined to allow it. If a player wanted to build a character around using a net, I would disallow it, and instead use a homebrew feat, as suggested earlier. Or introduce a "hooked net" weapon that did 1d4 slashing damage and used the same exotic-weapon-in-all-but-name rules that apply to firearms and elven double scimitars.

It's worth noting that you could simply throw the net as an improvised weapon, doing 1d4 + ability score bludgeoning damage with a range of 20/60. Although in that case the sharpshooter bonus would certainly not apply* (although sneak attack might).

*Edit: unless you where proficient with improvised weapons (Bar Room Brawler), in which case you can Sharpshoot with pretty much anything.

Iry · Mar 20, 2019

Definitely in the camp of “Nets do not roll for damage, so adding damage does nothing.”
But I love the Crossbow Expert Rogue idea.

DND_Reborn · Mar 20, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
It's worth noting that you could simply throw the net as an improvised weapon, doing 1d4 + ability score bludgeoning damage with a range of 20/60. Although in that case the sharpshooter bonus would certainly not apply* (although sneak attack might).

I guess that is your difference then. If you cast a net to restrain someone, you aren't dealing any damage (thus nothing to increase), but if you wad it up or coil it into a ball somehow and throw it as an improvised weapon, then you are dealing 1d4 damage.

Obviously, IMO a DM shouldn't rule it to have both effects: you either restrain a target or deal damage, but not both at the same time.

Charlaquin · Mar 20, 2019

Here’s another way to put it: a hypothetical Feat that could do the -5 to hit, +10 damage thing with any melee Attack (ignoring how overpowered that would be) could add 10 to the damage of an Unarmed Strike from a character with 8 Strength, even though the damage of their Unarmed Strike is 0. It could not add 10 to the damage of a shove or a grapple, because despite requiring the character to make an attack roll, damage is not the one of the results of a success on the attack roll for those maneuvers.

FrogReaver · Mar 20, 2019

Charlaquin said:
0 is a number. If a net dealt 0 damage, it would be dealing an amount of damage, to which things could be added. But the net does not deal 0 damage. It does not deal damage at all. This ability to draw this distinction is one of the reasons that having a number to represent a value of naught is useful.

Come on... this is basic grade school math.

If I have 3 oranges and ask you how many apples I have then you answer none or 0. Both are acceptable because 0 and none are the same thing. There is absolutely no disctinction ever between none of something and 0 of it.

Saying the net does no damage at all is a statement that gets mathematically written as 0. This grade school level understanding can further be realized by asking anyone how much damage attacking with a net does. The answer is none (aka zero).

FrogReaver · Mar 20, 2019

Mort said:
Please explain how adding SS damage but not adding mod damage makes any sense.

It's not okay to ask the same question that someone just asked you back to them while offering no answer.

If the net does 0 damage then why is it not treated exactly the same as a blow gun which does 1 damage (and therefore clearly qualifies for both mod damage and SS damage)?

Because the net is a special attack that does 0 damage. It has unique rules for how it works and mod damage isn't included there.

As for skipping important steps, you have never demonstrated in the slightest how "-" and "no damage" = "0." And no "everybody knows..." Doesn't cut it.

The concept of 0 = nothing is a grade school level concept. If you don't get that then no amount of me explaining is going to help you.

Mort · Mar 20, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Because the net is a special attack that does 0 damage. It has unique rules for how it works and mod damage isn't included there.

You've accused me of repeating an argument without actually offering support. Yet you keep doing it yourself.

I'll futily try once more.

Every other weapon has a number associated with it, every other weapon has a type associated with it (xdx, piercing, or xdx slashing).

The net has neither, as it was not intended to deal damage.

This is a problem with design, not numbers. Since the game designers didn't intend the net to deal damage, assigning of any damage number, even 0, causes problems when interacting with other aspects of the system that assume damage was intended - like SS.

FrogReaver said:
The concept of 0 = nothing is a grade school level concept. If you don't get that then no amount of me explaining is going to help you.

I'll let you keep knocking down your strawman.

Can Sharpshooter be used with a Net?

Mort

Legend

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

Paul Farquhar

Legend

Iry

Hero

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

Mort

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