WotBS Two strange details in adventure one
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    Two strange details in adventure one

    Even though I've run this adventure for five or six groups already - when you sit down to translate every word and sentance, there are some oddities that creep up. Here are two:

    1. In the beginning of Act Two it says "Peppin is dead, slain by agents of the elvish nation of Shahalesti." But if the Shahalesti spies killed Peppin, why does Larion believe that Peppin is one of the party members? Surely he would be informed about the killing of Peppin?

    2. Later in Act Two the party comes to the Gatemakers shop and encounters the secret entrance in the alley and meet with Kurychek. If they accept his help, he show how evil he really is by using an innocent child to achive his goals. But what happens here really? It states that Kurychek is knowledgeable about the planes and "can easily solve the riddle". But he "also knows the door is trapped". So he gets the girl to press the buttons and get poisoned. But why would the trap be sprung if the correct sequence is used? And why would the door open if the girl pressed the buttons in the wrong order. I cannot figure out the details here.

    Anyone wants to help me out here? On the first point, I'm thinking of just changing it to some nameless ragesian agent killing Peppin. But the second point has no clear solution. I love the scene, but how to explain those details properly?

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    1. I see this as a case of the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Peppin Tallman was killed by Shahalesti agents, just not any Shahalesti agents we meet in the story, and Larion does not know that (as Rivereye does not know it).

    2. Is an opportunity for flexibility that maybe could have been explained better. The imp can help with the riddle or get someone to open the door. It has to know about the riddle though. So if the heroes do not share the riddle, it gets someone to open the trapped door for them.

    Which edition are you currently using for this adventure?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tormyr View Post
    1. I see this as a case of the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Peppin Tallman was killed by Shahalesti agents, just not any Shahalesti agents we meet in the story, and Larion does not know that (as Rivereye does not know it).

    2. Is an opportunity for flexibility that maybe could have been explained better. The imp can help with the riddle or get someone to open the door. It has to know about the riddle though. So if the heroes do not share the riddle, it gets someone to open the trapped door for them.

    Which edition are you currently using for this adventure?
    I'm mostly using the original 3rd edition adventure, but I have all three editions and compare them frequently.

    1. I suppose that is possible. But Shealis should know (I doubt any Shahalesti agent would act within Gate Pass without informing her) and why wouldn't she inform Larion? I assume she gave him the mission to the Depository.

    2. Yes, if they don't tell Kurychek the riddle, he won't be able to solve it. But the full text is "With its knowledge of the planes it can easily solve the riddle if the party is stumped, but it also knows the door is trapped. If the party needs help with that too, the imp says to give it a moment and stay out of sight, and it skulks away." So the text seems to imply that even if Kurychek helps them with the riddle, they will still need help with the trap. Why would that be? It seems I'm missing some understanding about how the trap and the door work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I'm mostly using the original 3rd edition adventure, but I have all three editions and compare them frequently.

    1. I suppose that is possible. But Shealis should know (I doubt any Shahalesti agent would act within Gate Pass without informing her) and why wouldn't she inform Larion? I assume she gave him the mission to the Depository.

    2. Yes, if they don't tell Kurychek the riddle, he won't be able to solve it. But the full text is "With its knowledge of the planes it can easily solve the riddle if the party is stumped, but it also knows the door is trapped. If the party needs help with that too, the imp says to give it a moment and stay out of sight, and it skulks away." So the text seems to imply that even if Kurychek helps them with the riddle, they will still need help with the trap. Why would that be? It seems I'm missing some understanding about how the trap and the door work.
    1. There should be a disconnect that separates that knowledge. Maybe killed in an operation without realizing who he was. The important part to keep is Larion calling one of the heroes "Peppin", and the heroes trying to figure out why that is happening.

    2. This should be an either/or situation. Kurychek knows the door is trapped but does not know the combination without the heroes giving them the hint.

    I will see if I can clarify these a bit when I put together an update of the 5e PDF. Thanks for pointing these out! I hope you are enjoying the 5e version.

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    I just realised that you are one of the persons responsible for that 5e version. Well done!
    While I don't play 5e myself, the product feels much closer to the original 3e version. Which is a good thing.

    You are quite correct that Larions ignorance of Peppin's death by Shahalesti could be explained, but I just feel it's smoother to ascribe his death to Ragesians agents. Not that most players would find that out anyway.

    Regarding the scene with Kurychek, I must say that I just love that scene. The players thinking "so this guy wants to help and it won't cost us anything. Cool. I suppose he is a devil, but why worry about those details?" and then being overwhelmed by the demonstration of just how evil a devil is. So I really want to make that scene happen and make it feel logical for the DM reading the adventure. As it is presented right now, I can't see that logic.

    @RangerWickett, do you have any input on this?

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    Thanks! If you like the Kurychek scene, you may also like the adjustment to Kazzyk's option in adventure 2 to differentiate it more from Indomitability's option. Nice, simple option from the devil. What could go wrong?

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    Oldtimer, it's been 12 years. I don't remember what the imp offers to do or how the door was supposed to work. Sorry.

    But um, sure, I guess it could be read as "Hi, I'm an imp. Need some help. Gimme the case, and I'll open that door for you."

    If the party says, "Thanks. There's this riddle we can't solve. Tell us the answer and you'll get the case," the imp will do that.

    If they just say, "Thanks. Open the door for us and you'll get the case," the imp will get a kid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangerWickett View Post
    Oldtimer, it's been 12 years. I don't remember what the imp offers to do or how the door was supposed to work. Sorry.
    I appreciate that it's been quite a while, Ryan. But any wisdom you can dig up would be helpful.

    But um, sure, I guess it could be read as "Hi, I'm an imp. Need some help. Gimme the case, and I'll open that door for you."

    If the party says, "Thanks. There's this riddle we can't solve. Tell us the answer and you'll get the case," the imp will do that.

    If they just say, "Thanks. Open the door for us and you'll get the case," the imp will get a kid.
    Maybe I'm just being dense, but I don't see how that last option solves anything. The kid presses the buttons in the wrong order and gets poisoned. Then what? The door is still locked, right?

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    The trap doesn't automatically reset. So now they can take their time trying combinations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RangerWickett View Post
    The trap doesn't automatically reset. So now they can take their time trying combinations?
    Oh I see, it's one of those cheap IKEA traps.

    I suppose it makes sense then. Thanks, Ryan.

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