Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?

pemerton said:

I agree with all this.

Darkvision and poison resistance seem like elements in action declaration and action resolution rather than performance/presentation, so I'll put them to one side.

In most FRPGing, grooming one's beard, choosing one's food, not liking boat,s is all just colour. If my familiarity with the underground, or the distinctive histories or politics of my people, actually matter in play then that will come out in action declaration - as it does, for instance, for the dwarf in my 4e game.

Or to take another example: in the most recent RPG session I GMed - a Cthulhu Dark session - one of the PCs had two descriptors: head butler, and proper English gentelman. We didn't need the player to present or perform these descriptors in order to appreciate them - they were manifest from beginning to end in the play of the character: his concerns and motivations, his actions and responses.

Conversely, if the only way that I can tell your character is a butler is because you make references to the sivlerware that have no bearing on the actual play of the game; or if the only way I can tell you're a dwarf is because of your repeated references to your beard that never actually matters to any actions that your character undertakes; then I wonder what the point of the descriptor is at all. How is it actually informing the role you are playing in the game?

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Hrm, so, your Butler player never references anything? Zero description. We're supposed to guess that he's a butler and proper English Gentleman by the fact that he does what exactly? The player never attempts to sound like a butler or English for that matter? Never tries to affect a different diction? Nothing? His responses in no way give any clue about what he is?

Put it another way. Two players choose English Gentleman and Butler for their descriptors. According to you folks both characters should be indistinguishable from each other.

Colour is known to influence much in the world, hence its use in advertising, fashion, architecture...etc
To discount or play down the effects of colour in roleplaying seems a little short-sighted and reflects IMO a lack of creativity.

Hussar said:

Good grief [MENTION=85555]Bedrockgames[/MENTION], how many times do you need it explained? I KNOW, since you've entered this thread, I've explained the points pretty clearly at least twice. Now, you might disagree with the points, fair enough, but, complaining that you're not understanding it because no one is taking the time to explain it seems a bit disingenuous.

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That isn't what I said in my post.

Hussar said:

Seriously? You have no problem with players who play non-humans exactly the same as human characters to the point where no one at the table knows the race of the character? That it comes as a surprise when it is revealed (you're an elf? Really? Since when?)? Well, takes all kinds I suppose. To me, it's no different than any other aspect of your character. A successful portrayal of a character means that everyone at the table has a pretty decent mental image of your character, even if some of the details might be different.

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Seriously. It doesn't bother me if I can't tell much about a character just because of a player's performance. What matters to me is if the player is enthusiastic about the game, having fun, and is engaged with the other players. People do those things in all kinds of ways and I am not putting together an improv troupe. Most games we will have 1-2 actor types. And that is great. I don't need the whole group to be like that. And I don't even need all of the group to be like that. Not why I play.

Hussar said:

If all you are doing is playing with dwarf stats, isn't that the definition of roll play? If the only reason that you are playing a dwarf is that Con bonus and darkvision, well, I'd call that pretty poor play. There's nothing there for anyone else at the table to play off of, there's nothing for the DM to grab hold of, there's just a cypher character that exists as nothing more than a bunch of numbers. And, yup, I'm going to call that out as pretty poor play.

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First, I don't really care if a player just wants to 'roll play'. I generally like talking in character myself. It isn't everyone's cup of tea. But it isn't 'roll play' because they are PLAYING THEMSELVES with DWARF STATS. That playing yourself bit is pretty important in this case. That is still a very immersive in character experience. It just isn't a performative or acting based approach. But the players is still engaging the game in a way that is done from an in character point of view. The character just happens to have their personality. I am not at the table to say "Wow Derek is crushing playing a dwarf...he is really blowing me away with his acting chops". I want Derek to be enthusiastic and engaged with what is going on in the game. If essentially just playing himself with dwarf stats enables him to do that, that is fine by my opinion. And a ton of players play the game in exactly this way.

Now you don't have to like this style of play but I don't see anything inherently better about your style of play and I certainly don't regard this as 'poor play'/

Again, I think we have a fundamental division of play. I don't like the idea of sitting here judging peoples' performances. I find that extremely off-putting. When I game with people, I see them more as friends. But the approach you are advocating is one where your presence at the table is only valued if you are sufficiently entertaining the other players with your performance. Not what I am there for at all.

Also I want to point out, you clearly are advocating for playstyle here, which is the point I was trying to make earlier. And I think the fact that people are saying on the one hand, no this isn't about playstyle, then in the next breath advocating for a playstyle, makes it very hard to believe the way these terms of being created are not done in service to a playstyle argument.

Sadras said:

Colour is known to influence much in the world, hence its use in advertising, fashion, architecture...etc
To discount or play down the effects of colour in roleplaying seems a little short-sighted and reflects IMO a lack of creativity.

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Not saying color can't be important. We are saying it isn't the only thing. And when you emphasize color to the extent that Hussar is, I think it becomes style over substance personally. His demand for full color evocative art, is frankly evidence of that in my opinion (and evidence of a lack of imagination if you want me to be totally honest).

Maxperson said:

Here are some facts for you.

1. I can perform during an RPG, therefore an RPG is performance.

2. I can narrate during an RPG, therefore an RPG is narration.

3. I can write during an RPG, therefore an RPG is literary.

.

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Just because something can be done a particular way, it doesn't make it that thing itself. And just because writing is involved, that doesn't make it literature.

Bedrockgames said:

Not saying color can't be important. We are saying it isn't the only thing. And when you emphasize color to the extent that Hussar is, I think it becomes style over substance personally. His demand for full color evocative art, is frankly evidence of that in my opinion (and evidence of a lack of imagination if you want me to be totally honest).

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Whoa, hang on. No one is saying color is the only thing. We are saying that color is just as important as content. There's a significant difference.

Or, put it another way, content bereft of color is tasteless.

Bedrockgames said:

Not saying color can't be important. We are saying it isn't the only thing. And when you emphasize color to the extent that Hussar is, I think it becomes style over substance personally. His demand for full color evocative art, is frankly evidence of that in my opinion (and evidence of a lack of imagination if you want me to be totally honest).

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Yeah, I didn't quote anyone specifically, because everyone here has written a thesis and I have been MIA for a while so have not been able to follow this thread and others as well as I'd have liked. But yeah, saw some reference to colour and just made the comment in general.