Is RPGing a literary endeavour?

Hussar · May 19, 2019

Bedrockgames said:
D&D’s popularity didn’t begin with Dragonlance. Sure adventure paths are popular. But that doesn’t make them essential features or core parts of the RPG experience. Adventure paths are not required in the least

Sorry. I didn’t realize I had to give more evidence. 1e modules almost all had boxed text. Tomb of Horrors, one of the earliest modules has a picture gallery to show players. Until recently, setting guides were very, very popular books with hardcore fans who are dedicated to the canon of the setting.

On and on. Hundreds of pages in Dragon dedicated to the performance end of running a game. Endless player handouts and other goodies to use at the table. Entire libraries of gaming music.

For something that’s not essential, it sure has gotten a ton of attention over the years.

Bedrockgames · May 19, 2019

Hussar said:
Sorry. I didn’t realize I had to give more evidence. 1e modules almost all had boxed text. Tomb of Horrors, one of the earliest modules has a picture gallery to show players. Until recently, setting guides were very, very popular books with hardcore fans who are dedicated to the canon of the setting.

On and on. Hundreds of pages in Dragon dedicated to the performance end of running a game. Endless player handouts and other goodies to use at the table. Entire libraries of gaming music.

For something that’s not essential, it sure has gotten a ton of attention over the years.

Again is a module without boxed text still a module? If yes then Boxed text isn’t essential. And I never said setting books were not good or important. I love setting books. Where you and I disagree would be on his they should be written, what kind of art they ought to have, etc.

Hriston · May 19, 2019

Imaro said:
This doesn't speak to whether it is a core aspect of the game or not. If the group isn't interested in engaging with the situations presented because your presentation/performance doesn't make it interesting to them... well there's no game.

If the problem is that the situations aren’t interesting, then I think the solution is to use more interesting situations, not more flowery descriptions of uninteresting situations!

Imari said:
It's an ingredient of the whole just like everything else. Are eggs or milk not a core ingredient for a cake because you aren't eating the cake to experience drinking milk or eating an egg?

You need eggs and milk to make cake batter. You don’t need flowery language to play an rpg.

Imaro · May 19, 2019

Hriston said:
If the problem is that the situations aren’t interesting, then I think the solution is to use more interesting situations, not more flowery descriptions of uninteresting situations!

Orrrr... maybe present them better. I never made the assertion that the situation wasn't interesting...

Hriston said:
You need eggs and milk to make cake batter. You don’t need flowery language to play an rpg.

Good thing no ones arguing for "flowery" language as core then.

Hriston · May 19, 2019

Imaro said:
Orrrr... maybe present them better. I never made the assertion that the situation wasn't interesting...

You said the group wasn’t interested in engaging with the situations. That sounds to me like the group thinks your situations are uninteresting.

Imaro said:
Good thing no ones arguing for "flowery" language as core then.

Just replace “flowery language “ with “quality of form”. Isn’t that what you’re arguing for?

Imaro · May 19, 2019

Hriston said:
You said the group wasn’t interested in engaging with the situations. That sounds to me like the group thinks your situations are uninteresting.

ORRR... your presentation of them wasn't done well enough to hook the players... or are you claiming that's not a possibility?

Hriston said:
Just replace “flowery language “ with “quality of form”. Isn’t that what you’re arguing for?

Well which one are you arguing against because they aren't the same thing...

Hussar · May 19, 2019

Honestly, I think two things are very true in this thread.

1. People have equated literary and performance with "flowery language". That is not what's meant and has never been meant. Literary or performance simply means HOW the material is presented in the game, either in written form or in oral during a session. Literary carries additional connotations of utilizing various literary devices. Did you use pathetic fallacy during the session? Did you use foreshadowing? Did you engage various tropes of the genre? Then you are using literary devices.

2. Essentially this argument is as old as gaming. Which is more important, fluff or crunch? Some folks think that crunch (@Pemerton refers to task resolution) as all important and fluff (or flavor, or performance, or whatever you want to call it), while perhaps interesting, is largely unimportant. Others, like myself and I believe [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION], think that flavor and crunch are both equally important and equally needed in an RPG. That an RPG without flavor is, well, pretty much that randomly generated adventure dungeon I posted a couple of pages ago.

Bedrockgames · May 19, 2019

Hussar said:
Honestly, I think two things are very true in this thread.

1. People have equated literary and performance with "flowery language". That is not what's meant and has never been meant. Literary or performance simply means HOW the material is presented in the game, either in written form or in oral during a session. Literary carries additional connotations of utilizing various literary devices. Did you use pathetic fallacy during the session? Did you use foreshadowing? Did you engage various tropes of the genre? Then you are using literary devices.

Again, literary has a lot more connotation than that. But I don't use literary devices when I run games. Lots of people do not use them. Especially something like foreshadowing because I try not to plan future events. But what you say here just isn't true in the thread, and it is an example of why I am so wary anytime people propose new language like this (especially when they do so taking existing terms with loaded meaning). You keep saying this is just about presentation but then keep slipping into arguments over how that stuff should be presented (and the terms you have been opting to use, seem to favor how you think it should be presented).

2. Essentially this argument is as old as gaming. Which is more important, fluff or crunch? Some folks think that crunch (@Pemerton refers to task resolution) as all important and fluff (or flavor, or performance, or whatever you want to call it), while perhaps interesting, is largely unimportant. Others, like myself and I believe [MENTION=48965]Imaro[/MENTION], think that flavor and crunch are both equally important and equally needed in an RPG. That an RPG without flavor is, well, pretty much that randomly generated adventure dungeon I posted a couple of pages ago.

No one really objects to talking about fluff and crunch (though I think the hard division between those things can lead to bad products---a lot of stuff that came out during the d20 boom bothered me for that reason). If we frame things as flavor and crunch, I don' think there is as much disagreement. The disagreement all centers on how things out to be played out and written/designed.

Riley37 · May 19, 2019

Hussar said:
Did you engage various tropes of the genre? Then you are using literary devices.

Bedrockgames said:
I don't use literary devices when I run games. Lots of people do not use them.

BRG, you don't use any genre tropes when you run games?

Who are these "lots of people" who run TRPGs without using genre tropes? Could you name, say, five of them?

I've done a lot of TRPG that's squarely within the stock genres, such as Western, superhero, swords & sorcery, science fiction, horror; and a bit outside those genres, such as a Fiasco game set in the newsroom of a TV news team. But even that Fiasco game involved tropes: the idealistic journalist who wants to bring The Truth to The People, the ruthless career climber, the secret extra-legal government program, Who's Got The Tape (as if no one would make backup copies), the villain digging himself into tragic ruin, and so forth.

Riley37 · May 19, 2019

Hussar said:
Honestly, I think two things are very true in this thread.

1. People have equated literary and performance with "flowery language". That is not what's meant and has never been meant. Literary or performance simply means HOW the material is presented in the game, either in written form or in oral during a session.

Or in non-verbal, non-linguistic forms. You mentioned the Tomb of Horrors picture gallery. Any map which is more illustrated than the "no-frills" minimal map. If I draw a picture of my PC, that's also presentation of material. Use of figurines; if a figurine is more expressive than a chess piece, then that figurine is part of presentation, because it influences the mind's eye. Mercer uses a lot of voice sound effects; those are not words, and they are part of his attempt to give players a shared understanding of what's happening in the story.

Is RPGing a literary endeavour?

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