Cleric shenanigans (metaphysical, no right answers)

Well, that's precisely my point. You are looking for logical consistency, and when you start citing supposed 1e AD&D demographics as the basis of logical consistency, things fall apart very quickly.

"Logical consistency" is exactly why spell casting clerics have to be rare in a typical D&D pseudo-medieval world. A world where the average village priest can cast cure wounds is a utopia with Universal Healthcare. The average peasant needn't fear injury or disease when they can just go to the local cleric and get healed in couple of minutes. Even death would be a rare occurrence. The price of healing would be forced down to a few coppers due to the abundant supply.

The "conceit" in adventures like Village of Hommlet is that all the villagers with stat blocks are also exceptional individuals. D&D functions on massive coincidence. Of course, Village of Hommlet is an appallingly badly written adventure anyway.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Scott Graves

First Post
Well, the interesting question is whether, given the certainty of divinity and multiple gods etc. in most campaign settings ...

would that make it more, or less, likely for fanaticism and zealotry?

My guess/assumption would be that it would be less likely, especially given the number of deities (it would be more of a background fact of life than faith), but there would always be a few deities out there that are REALLY into expanding the flock, if you catch my drift.

It has less to do with expansion of flock and more to do with expansion of awareness of the power of a specific deity. People in such situations have a set of household gods they worship and offer sacrifices to. Clerics and Paladins seek to get their gods included in those lists of household gods so their gods get more attention and worship.
 

Celebrim

Legend
"Logical consistency" is exactly why spell casting clerics have to be rare in a typical D&D pseudo-medieval world. A world where the average village priest can cast cure wounds is a utopia with Universal Healthcare.

Well, first of all, how do you know that the typical D&D world doesn't have "universal healthcare" as you put it. Nothing in the text of say 1e AD&D either affirms or denies how much access common farmers have to health care. There is nothing logically inconsistent about the D&D world having better healthcare options than normal, simply because in practice that is what the players will observe. Your objection seems to be that you've assumed something - lack of health care - that D&D neither claims nor implies.

The average peasant needn't fear injury or disease when they can just go to the local cleric and get healed in couple of minutes.

Secondly, that assertion isn't even implied by the universality or near universality of priests as clerics. Injury would still occur which would be fatal before a cleric could be contacted. Diseases and injuries that occurred in batches, whether from battle or plague would quickly overwhelm the ability of local clergy to respond to. Cure Disease is notably a 3rd level spell, so even if we assumed clergy and not laity made up a significant portion of the staff of any temple, and that clergy were exclusively cleric classed, there is still no reason to assume that a typical village temple could cure more than a few diseased individuals per day (or in smaller parishes, any). So a pestilence which sprang up suddenly among several households would tax even the 'universal cleric' demographic model, as most acolytes and adepts would lack the ability to help with more than mundane healing skill. Moreover, there is no reason to suppose that the beneficiaries of any Cure Disease spells would develop the solid disease resistance that might be expected of an individual that had more naturally recovered, so if the disease was virulent attempts to cure it through magical healing alone might easily be overwhelmed if solid quarantine measures could not also be implemented.

In short, even a model where there is one or more clerics per 100 inhabitants does not in any way imply the sort of utopia you claim, even ignoring the fact that the clerics will be opposed by supernatural forces dedicated to the spread of pestilence and death.

Even death would be a rare occurrence.

Again, this is an assertion not at all supportable when imagining even an abundant supply of clerics.

The price of healing would be forced down to a few coppers due to the abundant supply.

Again, this is an assertion not at all supportable when imagining even an abundant supply of clerics. Certainly it would likely be the case that a good aligned cleric would agree to heal a poor petitioner in exchange for only a few coppers or even nothing, on occasion. But consider the opportunity cost of each healing. Each cleric has only a limited number of spells per day which constitutes a large portion of the cleric's potential economic activity for the day. The supply of divine spells is relatively inflexible. But the demand for divine magic is going to be virtually unlimited. Each day the cleric will face a variety of bids for his services. People will want blessings to improve their chances of success in business or other critical matters. They'll want crops and livestock protected. They'll want curses removed and evil spirits driven away. They'll want bodies of deceased loved ones blessed so that those bodies will not rise as undead. They'll want items blessed so as to be more officious and to war against evil. Holy water, symbols, and relics will need to be sanctified. Holy ground will need to be consecrated and protected from intrusion. They'll want food and drink cleansed of potential contaminants. They'll want auguries and divinations performed and divine portents interpreted so as to better manage their affairs. Lost objects will need to be found. Evil magic will require dispelling. Crimes and murders will need to be investigated, and inquests performed. And through all these demands, the priest must wisely reserve some portion of their power in case an unforeseen emergency or threat arrives. If someone comes needing healing in the morning, what happens when someone needs greater healing in the afternoon or the evening? What happens when evil forces assail the temple and all your spell potency has already been expended?

In short, the cost of spell healing might get pushed down lower than the exorbitant prices that clerics are said to charge the adventuring class, but not to the point that they are below the wages a craftsman would expect. The total value of the clerics spells are likely to be roughly equal on a per day basis to the expected income of any other highly skilled craftsman, and there fees based on a combination of that and the cost of their components. Most clerics will have only a handful of spells to sell and most, especially higher level ones, will normally only sell a portion of their spells in a day owing to the fact that if they are without spells at all it potentially puts the whole community at risk. Nor is it necessarily the case that the exorbitant fees that PC adventures are charged represents the fees that farmers would have to pay. It could be that the clerics typically charge wealthy reckless adventurers high rates precisely because they want the freedom to charge Goodman Ploughman and Goodwife Baker little or nothing.

The "conceit" in adventures like Village of Hommlet is that all the villagers with stat blocks are also exceptional individuals. D&D functions on massive coincidence. Of course, Village of Hommlet is an appallingly badly written adventure anyway.

All the villagers in Village of Hommlet have stat blocks of some sort, even if they are merely 0 level fighters. Regardless of this conceit, based on what is actually published suggests that PC classed individuals are exceptional (in that they are above the norm) but not rare (in that in any group of 100 or so individuals there will be several).

Suggesting that "D&D functions on massive coincidence" concedes my point rather than overturns it.

Suggesting that Village of Hommlet is an "appallingly badly written adventure anyway" is deflection. Regardless of its quality, it's demographics are typical.
 

Well, first of all, how do you know that the typical D&D world doesn't have "universal healthcare" as you put it. Nothing in the text of say 1e AD&D either affirms or denies how much access common farmers have to health care.

"Pseudo-medieval" tells you that they don't have universal health care. In medieval times life for a peasant was nasty, brutish and short. And it wasn't that much better for the nobility. Sure, you could set your adventure in a utopian society, but that would be very different to a typical D&D setting.


Secondly, that assertion isn't even implied by the universality or near universality of priests as clerics.

A typical medieval village would have around 50 people and one priest (and if you want to assume "most villages don't have a priest", that is the same as assuming most priests can't cast spells). If the priest was first level they could still cure about10 hp of damage per day 356 days per year - 3560 hp per year. And since villages where small they could easily get to an injured farmer faster than a modern air ambulance could get to you. As for disease, it takes weeks or months to heal someone of a disease in the real world. Even if only a smattering of clerics are level 5 or above you are still talking healing rates more in line with Star Trek than medieval.

Suggesting that "D&D functions on massive coincidence" concedes my point rather than overturns it.

If you like. Or you might call it movie logic rather than real world logic.

Suggesting that Village of Hommlet is an "appallingly badly written adventure anyway" is deflection. Regardless of its quality, it's demographics are typical.

The Village of Hommlet is a far from typical village even in the world it is set in (Greyhawk is supposed to be grimdark). It certainly isn't typical of any villages in the games I'm involved in - I would be ashamed to put that in front of my players.
 

Celebrim

Legend
"Pseudo-medieval" tells you that they don't have universal health care.

Psuedo-Medieval tells you nothing of the sort. It tells you that it is "fake, spurious, sham" Medieval. It tells you only that it will have some Medieval trappings but depart significantly from actual Medieval in many important ways. Most notably, since "Psuedo-Medieval" generally involves magic, and that magic can cause healing, there is reason to expect that the level of healing available might differ markedly from actual medieval.

In practice, very little ever published for D&D then or now is actually Medieval in setting, and even not much is compelling pseudo-Medieval beyond the weaponry - and even it is biased toward 15th and 16th century arms, usually but not always, sans gunpowder. Much of the urban setting could be equally regarded as "Psuedo-Dickensonian", and could just as easily be the setting of Twain's "Peasant & The Pauper" or Dicken's "Oliver Twist". Much of the technology presented in D&D, and certainly D&D from the early 1980's on, tended to be Early Modern mixed with a wide variety of anachronistic settings from Ancient Greece to Victorian England. Feudalism, serfdom, shortages of coin, and so forth rarely are important to D&D settings or stories. Homes are generally not wattle and daub construction single room affairs in the published texts. Cities are generally much larger than their medieval counterparts, as are the armies that they can send forth. Nations tend to be monocratic consolidated nation states, not feudal kingdoms. Trade tends to be widespread, and communities tend to be cosmopolitan.

Of course, you are entirely free to adapt D&D to a more rigorously medieval game if you wish, but there is a not a lot of evidence that the publishers of the game ever thought this a particularly important thing to do. Gygax was at least as much of an Egyptophile as he was an aficionado of medieval life, and by his own accounts was just as inspired by Westerns and the Klondike gold rush as say, the Ottoian dynasty.

In medieval times life for a peasant was nasty, brutish and short. And it wasn't that much better for the nobility.

Surely you aren't going to start telling me about Medieval History. I can swing around a Charles Oman text just as well as you likely can.

Sure, you could set your adventure in a utopian society, but that would be very different to a typical D&D setting.

Yes, but you've yet to establish that a "utopian society" is a necessary or even likely outcome of all clergy presented in a setting being clerics.

A typical medieval village would have around 50 people and one priest (and if you want to assume "most villages don't have a priest"

Oh swell. You are going to try to tell me about medieval history.

There is no reason to suppose your hypothetical cleric serving your hypothetical hamlet is more than 1st level. As such, there is no reason to suppose that the level of healing involved, while it would be significantly better than that available to a medieval peasant, would lead to a "utopian" society. Injuries that might otherwise take a laborer from their employment for days or weeks could in fact be healed quickly, and minor wounds could be healed before they became septic or infected. This would surely improve life in the community, which could go a long ways toward explaining the greater prosperity typically seen in D&D pseudo-Medieval worlds than in actual Medieval settings. But conversely, his cleric cannot cure disease, and must contend with equally active forces of evil. Nor can he restore lost fingers or toes, bind broken bones, or heal damaged minds after concussions or other all too common serious injuries that occur in a rural setting with a lot of sharp objects being employed regularly. For these more serious injuries, a pilgrimage to some mightier temple would be required.

It seems the entire basis of your "proof" is your conception regarding what the game is supposed to be like, and not in fact what we can draw from published examples, demographics, or inference. You have a preferred notion and a preferred take on things ("Greyhawk is supposed to be grimdark."(?!?!?)) and by golly, you are going to stick with that, facts and evidence be darned.
 
Last edited:

merwins

Explorer
Through all the deep conversation on broader topics, I'm still taken by the ambiguity of Augury and Divination.

I'm actually considering the implications of having Augury and Divination target PCs.

From any other plane, an Augury might target PCs as "otherworldly entities."

From anywhere, Divination might target a PCs as one of a "god's servants."

I mean, imagine an aetheric switchboard that connnects every creature to every other (probably impacted by the astral plane). The switchboard automatically tags everyone associatively.

So when a creature from the Elemental Plane of Fire might cast Augury to find out whether an action would have good or bad results, and reaches a cleric to Apollo or Vulcan, or even maybe an arson-prone pyromaniac sorceror PC, that could be interesting.

Divination, cast by a cleric, might go through the switchboard to the god, who's too busy to answer, so she routs it to her most devout follower with knowledge relevant to the divination--could be some farmer in Bungswamp, or as PC options, a high-level Fighter or a non-jaded mid-level cleric.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Through all the deep conversation on broader topics, I'm still taken by the ambiguity of Augury and Divination.

I'm actually considering the implications of having Augury and Divination target PCs.

From any other plane, an Augury might target PCs as "otherworldly entities."

From anywhere, Divination might target a PCs as one of a "god's servants."

I mean, imagine an aetheric switchboard that connnects every creature to every other (probably impacted by the astral plane). The switchboard automatically tags everyone associatively.

So when a creature from the Elemental Plane of Fire might cast Augury to find out whether an action would have good or bad results, and reaches a cleric to Apollo or Vulcan, or even maybe an arson-prone pyromaniac sorceror PC, that could be interesting.

Divination, cast by a cleric, might go through the switchboard to the god, who's too busy to answer, so she routs it to her most devout follower with knowledge relevant to the divination--could be some farmer in Bungswamp, or as PC options, a high-level Fighter or a non-jaded mid-level cleric.

I admit it's fascinating thought, and my immediate question would be, "Surely these cosmic switchboard operators are even more knowledgeable then than the gods? Who created them or oversees them?"

All of that provokes a lot of creativity that I think would be perfectly appropriate to a novel where I have perfect authorial control.

Unfortunately, owing to the great difficulty already present in running divinations in the context of the game, all of the complexities introduced by this vision of the underlying mechanics is solving problems I don't have and increasing the difficulty in adjudicating prognostic propositions.
 

merwins

Explorer
Unfortunately, owing to the great difficulty already present in running divinations in the context of the game, all of the complexities introduced by this vision of the underlying mechanics is solving problems I don't have and increasing the difficulty in adjudicating prognostic propositions.

It's likely you'd have to prime the players to be prepared for these eventualities. But I've found that they have EXACTLY the mentality for the sort of responses these spells demand:

For Augury, that infuriating, "Oh, yeah, definitely bad/good!" or "Shrug" with no follow up detail.

Or for Divination, the even more infuriating, "short phrase, a cryptic rhyme, or an omen" that rises to the level of an inside joke or relies on so much contextual knowledge that it's nearly worthless at first glance. "Darmok and Jalad at Tenagra."

The only catch is that the PCs have to be truthful. But you're basically giving them the chance to be a GM for a moment.

Maybe how they present their answers is how you treat them in following encounters in a karmically-balanced world.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
My own small take on the Piousness v Faith argument:

1) Deities can, presumably, tell the difference between ritual mechanics and actual belief. That's why there can be many who follow a faith, but relatively few Clerics. The Clerics truly believe and devote themselves to their deity/philosophy. Followers tend to follow through local social pressure, or something similar

2) Strictly speaking "Faith" shouldn't really exist in a fantasy game setting. Faith is "belief that is not based on proof" (Dictionary.com) Since the presence of Clerical magic is indisputable, proof exists and therefore "faith", in the strictest sense, can't exist. So I'd substitute the concept of Devotion for "Faith".
 


Remove ads

Top