Greyhawk Elevator Pitch?

MNblockhead · May 15, 2019

Sword of Spirit said:
It's not the city-states itself that I have a problem with. I should have clarified that I meant city-states surrounded by vast, unclaimed wilderness. I don't know if the Italian city-states claimed area bordering on each other (though I'd guess so), but they definitely didn't have vast wilderness.

The areas of Faerun I'm talking about are huge and the spaces in-between are very much unclaimed except by isolated villages, so I'm not sure if the analogy holds. On the other hand, Greyhawk's territory (and I understand Gygax was inspired by the American Old West) includes a lot of wilderness area too, it's just that it all lies within the border of some nation's claims (and some of it is at least occasionally patrolled), unlike in the Forgotten Realms, where the land is implausibly left for monsters to inhabit.

The real world didn't have terrible monsters controlling urban sprawl.

Also, like the real life, the "wilderness" was often "inhabited by folk that are not us." Many of the wilderness areas are inhabited by large numbers of sentient beings. They just don't get on well with human, elves, dwarves, etc.

Also, what would the world look like with multiple species of intelligent peoples who can't interbreed? They may need to be agreed-upon buffers to keep the peace.

But, mostly, D&D is a dangerous place. It's hard for folk to clear out the monsters and keep new ones from moving in, while at the same time dealing with other "civilized" populations with competing interests.

Paul Farquhar · May 15, 2019

Sword of Spirit said:
It's not the city-states itself that I have a problem with. I should have clarified that I meant city-states surrounded by vast, unclaimed wilderness. I don't know if the Italian city-states claimed area bordering on each other (though I'd guess so), but they definitely didn't have vast wilderness.

The areas of Faerun I'm talking about are huge and the spaces in-between are very much unclaimed except by isolated villages, so I'm not sure if the analogy holds. On the other hand, Greyhawk's territory (and I understand Gygax was inspired by the American Old West) includes a lot of wilderness area too, it's just that it all lies within the border of some nation's claims (and some of it is at least occasionally patrolled), unlike in the Forgotten Realms, where the land is implausibly left for monsters to inhabit.

The areas controlled by the Italian city states where nebulous and largely defined by what their militias could defend. There where no hard lines on the map "You are now leaving Milan, welcome to Venice". The idea that every inch of a map - including wilderness - has to be carved up with imaginary lines between nation-states is a relatively modern one (and I consider 18th century modern) and assumes monsters/large predators/orcs/goblins/Native Americans have been largely exterminated (as well as cartography being advanced enough to actually have accurate maps).

As for the Sword Coast city states, all four of them are maritime powers, looking to the sea for wealth, communications, and a significant proportion of food. They have little incentive to tame a monster-infested interior beyond the farmland necessary to feed the population.

gyor · May 15, 2019

Waterdeeps territory is fairily large outside of the borders of the actual city.

gyor · May 15, 2019

Major trade roads do get parroled by various groups. Also some regions are more civilized then others. Allied City states dominate the the Swordcoast, but other regions have more nation states and Kingdoms, the Old Empires region, the Lands of Intrigue, Shou Lung and Wa, the Unapproachable East, Evermeet, the Western Heartlands, the Cold Lands, ect...

It's really only the the Swordcoast and the North that is like that.

Paul Farquhar · May 15, 2019

gyor said:
Waterdeeps territory is fairily large outside of the borders of the actual city.

And that makes sense - it is very wealthy, has a large population for a "pseudo-medieval" city and good access to magic to make communication faster than "the speed of a fast horse". What it doesn't have is a dotted line which if you step across it you leave Waterdeap State and enter Baldur's Gate State.

Parmandur · May 15, 2019

Paul Farquhar said:
And that makes sense - it is very wealthy, has a large population for a "pseudo-medieval" city and good access to magic to make communication faster than "the speed of a fast horse". What it doesn't have is a dotted line which if you step across it you leave Waterdeap State and enter Baldur's Gate State.

zNational borders are a relatively recent historical development. The fuzziness, given the monster-swamped nature of the region, make sense. Leaves it to DM control.

Paul Farquhar · May 15, 2019

Parmandur said:
zNational borders are a relatively recent historical development. The fuzziness, given the monster-swamped nature of the region, make sense. Leaves it to DM control.

Indeed.

lowkey13 · May 15, 2019

*Deleted by user*

Azzy · May 15, 2019

See, this is a prime example of the Forgotten Realms trying to subsume Greyawk! You can't even have a thread about Greyhawk without the discussion shifting to the Forgotten Realms.

LordEntrails · May 15, 2019

The great cartography and political borderlines never bothered me, and still don't, about GH. After all, when you have divination magic and can ride a hypogriff, it's not hard to make perfect maps. Sure, such connotations may not be something we Earthlings developed until far later, but for a fantasy world that has access to magic and aerial surveys, it makes sense that maps would be available (at least to the political rulers) and it makes sense that kings and queens would want to lay claim to as much of it as they can, even if they can't patrol or hold it.