D&D 5E Brainstorming TotM

The Session Tapes · May 13, 2019

Hi folks,

Recently started a new D&D5E campaign, and we're just getting to the point where combat is imminent.

Now I've run plenty of combat in 5E before, but I always use battlemaps or dungeon tiles and markers. This time, as I'm trying to run a more free-flow, narrative campaign, I was thinking of leaving off the battlemaps and sticking to narrative (read: "Theatre of the Mind") combat.

Unfortunately, my experience with TotM in 5E has been really negative thus-far... the system just seems overwhelmingly optimised for map-and-marker combat, at the expense of a lot of built-in tools for TotM. I'm going to try an persevere with using TotM for the more spontaneous action sequences and only using maps for the big set-piece "Marvel Battles", but I was curious if there are other DMs out there who have the same issues using TotM in 5E.

The biggest issue I see with TotM in 5E is that it puts all the stress for managing and directing the flow of the action on the DM. I think this strips a lot of agency from the players, and can leave the DM with all the blame if the fight "goes south".

What, as a DM, are your experiences with narrative combat in 5th? Are there any special tools or systems you use to make it more accessible for your players?

Tales and Chronicles · May 13, 2019

You could have distance markers and zone aspects. It does require that you ignore or simplify all the ranges indications for abilities and spell. It can be hard and you must ask your players for help. Ask them to ignore the specific ranges and dont sweat the minutia of positioning, focusing instead on describing the cool actions they are doing. Tell them that you wont ''gotcha'' them with AoO all the time because they didnt clearly understood their positioning. I use AoO only when its undeniable that the PC was engaged in melee with a foe and he tries to change from one distance to another.

Distance Marker I use is Engaged (aka in melee), Near (10-15'), Circling or Skirmish (30') and Distant (more than 30'), always calculated from a PC to another creature.
There's half a move between each distance and we dont bother with racial speed. Classes that gives you a bonus to speed gives you another bonus instead (+1 AC against AoO per speed increase).

Zone Aspect means that you divide your 'battle in thematic zones with objects or scenery the players can interact with in each one. You players are fighting at night at their camp? Then there's a fallen tree zone, a fire pit zone, a small river zone and the Distant distance marker means your in the wood that give you concealment. Each of those element can be used by or against the players.

Anyway, hope that helps. It can be tough but if everyone helps it should work.

robus · May 13, 2019

If you’ve not read the Roshambo approach to TotM combat, do it, it’s cool and puts a lot of new options back in front of players. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...he-Mind-combat-(updated-again-to-version-1-2)

iserith · May 13, 2019

I prefer maps and tokens and use Roll20 even for in-person games.

But one thing I learned about TotM is that the standard play loop is even more important and the DM is well-served by internalizing that process and using it. The standard play loop is (1) The DM describes the environment, (2) The players describe what they want to do, and (3) The DM narrates the results of the adventurers's actions.

The key thing here (and this applies to any game, not just TotM) is that this is a loop, meaning that after you've narrated the result of someone's action and their turn is over, start back at (1) The DM describes the environment. Many DMs just go "Okay, John, you're up next..." skipping over (1) and going straight to (2). By doing so, this opens up the floor to questions about who is standing where and what the current PC is in the position to do. A side conversation ensues between the DM and player that interrupts the flow of the game while everyone gets back on the same page. With a map and tokens (or minis), these questions are answered just by looking at the map. With TotM, we need the DM to serve that purpose.

So, after (3), go back to (1) and re-describe what's going on succinctly and with an eye toward positioning, plus anything that has changed since the last time you described the environment (e.g. "the orc next to Ragnar was slain..."), laying out the basic scope of options that present themselves to that character. Then proceed to ask that character's player "What do you do?" Get into the habit of following that play loop as an ingrained habit. This simple thing will clear up a lot of issues and is already built into the rules, no house rules or special techniques required. It's good to do this for those times when you are using a map, too.

aco175 · May 13, 2019

I recently went to a convention and one of the DMs played TotM over grid. There was a lot of asking questions about distance and where the monsters were in relation to the others. Some of the actions I thought was a bit unfair like trying to circle a monster to get to another PC and the DM had an attack of opportunity when I thought there was room to get around. I would think you need to be more descriptive in where things are and go over things each round before players take their turn. Try to be fair and maybe even fudge a bit on the players side if there is a question.

I asked the table after the convention and each thought a grid would have worked for most of the combat except one that only have two monsters. My home group does not want to try since the visual of a grid works fine for everyone. I know others will say if it better, so I guess you should try and see how it goes.

lowkey13 · May 13, 2019

*Deleted by user*

Tony Vargas · May 13, 2019

The Session Tapes said:
Unfortunately, my experience with TotM in 5E has been really negative thus-far... the system just seems overwhelmingly optimised for map-and-marker combat, at the expense of a lot of built-in tools for TotM. I'm going to try an persevere with using TotM for the more spontaneous action sequences and only using maps for the big set-piece "Marvel Battles", but I was curious if there are other DMs out there who have the same issues using TotM in 5E.

While 5e supposedly defaults to TotM, it really has vanishingly little support for it. You could check out other games that do work well w/o a map, like 13A (which does both nicely) and lift a mechanic or two.

The biggest issue I see with TotM in 5E is that it puts all the stress for managing and directing the flow of the action on the DM. I think this strips a lot of agency from the players, and can leave the DM with all the blame if the fight "goes south".

Yep, that's part of DM Empowerment. The thing to do is take it and use it to your advantage. You can use a map, for instance, but keep it behind the screen. You don't /need/ to keep perfect tabs of where everyone is, you just have to do a fair job acting as if you are. Players will get used to asking you who they can reach, which is closest, how many they can catch in an AE, etc, instead of trying to ask precisely where everyone is and figuring that out for themselves. This lets you adjust the difficulty of the challenge to suit, on the fly. Too easy? Oh, you can only catch two of them in a fireball. Too hard? Remove a few monsters, no one will even notice since you don't have to reach down and sneak them off a play surface.

The Crimson Binome · May 13, 2019

The Session Tapes said:
What, as a DM, are your experiences with narrative combat in 5th? Are there any special tools or systems you use to make it more accessible for your players?

None of the rules of the game are actually changed, when you decide to bring out the map or put it away. You still provoke an opportunity attack, when you leave someone's reach. The only difference is how much time you spend setting it up, and how easy it is for everyone to visualize. If your players are bad at visualizing, or you are bad at describing things as the DM, then you'll probably want to use a map.

That being said, there are some things that you can do in order to make it easier for you, if you don't want to use the map. For example, use fewer enemies, so that it's easier for everyone to track their positions mentally. Avoid the use of small cone effects, where it might be hard to describe who is in the area. Don't cluster different terrain very closely together; you want it to be obvious when someone is standing somewhere that's different. In general, just space things out more across the battlefield.

And when in doubt, err on the side of the players. There's going to be miscommunication, and players will want to have done something else, if only they'd known. If they thought they had stopped more than 30' away from the spellcaster, then let them move back when it becomes relevant. After all, the character can see the battlefield much more clearly than the player can.

TarionzCousin · May 14, 2019

I think the problem with "Theater of the Mind" is that everyone involved has their own unique and completely separate mind.

Every TotM combat I've ever played out (about 4 dozen) has had people "misunderstanding" exactly what the DM meant in one way or another. It's caused frustration and problems. Perhaps a third of the time the DM ended up drawing something to explain the situation after a question or three.

robus · May 14, 2019

TarionzCousin said:
I think the problem with "Theater of the Mind" is that everyone involved has their own unique and completely separate mind.

Every TotM combat I've ever played out (about 4 dozen) has had people "misunderstanding" exactly what the DM meant in one way or another. It's caused frustration and problems. Perhaps a third of the time the DM ended up drawing something to explain the situation after a question or three.

I think this might be a failure of a DM narrating the results of the action. With TotM (as Iserith noted above) narration is key. The DM has to keep telling the story of the battle and reminding the players of their situation. It also requires the players to pay attention. Nothing worse for a DM to hear, after a clear narration of the players current situation, “err what’s my situation?”