Favourite D&D edition that’s not 5E

Favourite D&D Edition

  • OD&D

    Votes: 18 6.1%
  • AD&D 1E

    Votes: 42 14.3%
  • AD&D 2E

    Votes: 72 24.6%
  • D&D 3E/3.5

    Votes: 79 27.0%
  • D&D 4E

    Votes: 73 24.9%
  • Other (not 5E)

    Votes: 9 3.1%

Tony Vargas

Legend
I have to say I'm a bit surprised that 4E is leading in the poll here. Not because I dislike 4E (I like it, actually) but because I had gotten the vibe that this forum leaned more anti-4E compared to RPG.net, where at the moment there are five (at least) Let's Read threads for various 4E products.
Sure, but a lot of us have been here since it was Eric Noah's and all about the 'new' 3rd edition, and have just adopted each new edition, 4e, then 5e, in turn.

What's your favorite alternate to the current ed is often a close call. I nearly voted 4e, but went with 1e, because that's still where the magic lies, for me, emotionally. I could have as easily gone for 4e (pre-E), on the basis of technical superiority, or 3.0 for the character concepts I was able to build to.
 

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Winterthorn

Monster Manager
1e. I played that from 1981 to 2012 when 5e finally pulled me away. However, I do like some 2e elements, like thief skill progression, THAC0, and specialty priests from 2e over 1e. But 1e had the best art by far, I loved how the game encouraged you to create your own worlds and adventures, and the 1e DMG is the best gaming supplement ever for said game world creators. I also prefer niche protection, and have a healthy disdain for “every class should be good at every aspect.” design philosophy. I view D&D like a team, where various classes play off weaknesses and strengths of others, like sports teams are now. Not where every player is as good in every aspect as every other player.

Yes! I agree with your comment on niche protection in particular - it is why I am glad multiclassing is just an option in 5E.

I loved BECMI from my youth, and enjoyed running 2E in the 1990s, but when I look at my vast library of 3/3.5E and related d20 books, I know that Third Edition was my favourite for the rich mess of material we had to work with, lol.
 

pemerton

Legend
Actually, with decent hps regardless of CON, and Close spells that could be cast safely in melee - barring the 1e MU casting Tenser's Transformation or Shapechange - yeah, he did. (So, for that matter does the max-concentration 3e Wizard... and the heavy-armored 5e Mountain Dwarf Abjurer.)
If you build for it, sure. Which you can do in AD&D as a F/MU, or using powerful Bracers of Defence, or . . .

But the wizard/invoker in my 4e game didn't strike me as particularly atypical - and has always had Thunderwave ready to hand - but gets absolutely pasted in melee. That the precise consistency of the paste might differ from its AD&D analogue seems a secondary point.
 

pemerton

Legend
It also makes the math you have to do every time you make an attack a little more manageable - adding a number from 1d20 + 11 is faster and easier to do for most people than 1d20 + 45. It also keeps d20 rolls swingy throughout a character’s career, though not everyone considers that a positive change.
I'll agree on the easier arithmetic. I'm not sure about what you mean by "swingy" - if it's really an attack/defence treadmill then the "swinginess" is preserved just the same.

shifting the treadmill from hit bonus and AC to damage and HP is just as illusory, yes, but there are some important differences. With an accuracy treadmill, you eventually reach the point where it’s impossible for you to miss enemies far enough below your CR, which in turn find it impossible to hit you. Shifting the treadmill to survivability makes the giant horde of low-level enemies tactic viable.
This just leads back to the discussion about minions and swarms. In 4e I had more combats, and more interesting combats, involving giant hordes of weaker enemies than I ever did in AD&D or Rolemaster.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
If you build for it, sure. Which you can do in AD&D as a F/MU, or using powerful Bracers of Defence, or . . .
You couldnt really do 'builds' in 1e, especially not that depended on items. And multiclassing meant significant level limits.

But the point wasn't mainly toughness (though wizards get slightly tougher with each ed, too), it was casting in melee: in 1e, it was risky (though the rules weren't super clear even by 1e standards, and even clear rules could vary from table to table), and you could lose the spell automatically if hit (or even just knocked down or whatever, casting was heavily restricted).

In 3e, all that could be countered with optimized concentration, in 4e you just risked an OA with range & area but not Close spells, and in 5e you just freely cast in melee.
 

pemerton

Legend
You couldnt really do 'builds' in 1e, especially not that depended on items. And multiclassing meant significant level limits.
Multi-classing doesn't mean particularly serious level limits eg 7/11 for an elf F/MU, or 8/8 for a half-elf F/MU, assuming decent stats.

You can also build by researching spells, by pooling items, by choosing which items to keep and which to sell, etc.

But the point wasn't mainly toughness (though wizards get slightly tougher with each ed, too), it was casting in melee: in 1e, it was risky (though the rules weren't super clear even by 1e standards, and even clear rules could vary from table to table), and you could lose the spell automatically if hit (or even just knocked down or whatever, casting was heavily restricted).
As you say, the rules aren't that clear. And you can always use wands, which tend to have good casting times.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
You couldnt really do 'builds' in 1e, especially not that depended on items. And multiclassing meant significant level limits.

But the point wasn't mainly toughness (though wizards get slightly tougher with each ed, too), it was casting in melee: in 1e, it was risky (though the rules weren't super clear even by 1e standards, and even clear rules could vary from table to table), and you could lose the spell automatically if hit (or even just knocked down or whatever, casting was heavily restricted).

In 3e, all that could be countered with optimized concentration, in 4e you just risked an OA with range & area but not Close spells, and in 5e you just freely cast in melee.

In a certain sense you could achieve builds over a long period of time--by bequeathing items from dead/levelled-out high-level characters, you can build up enough of a foundation that subsequent characters can start "expecting" certain things. That was, as I understand it, a big part of why Gygax resorted to "DM arms race" type tactics, because he needed ways to defeat the characters that would put crimps in the accumulation process.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
As you say, the rules aren't that clear. And you can always use wands, which tend to have good casting times.
I think it's pretty obvious that unclear rules (so hard to apply system mastery) that mention spoiling spellcasting and loss of the slot when casting in melee are a lot more melee-adverse than clearer ones that call for an AoO, risk spoiling the spell but not loss of the slot and can be circumvented with optimized concentration, which in turn are harsher than a mere OA without stopping casting that can be avoided by casting close spells, which in turn is less permissive than casting freely in melee with no consequence.


(Though I wonder how 6e will make casting even easier, I don't doubt that it will find something)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
. Shifting the treadmill to survivability makes the giant horde of low-level enemies tactic viable.
Unless you have save:1/2 AEs flying around at high levels, then the hordes get auto-killed. It's more dramatic, since volleys from said hordes will also be quickly fatal, but it's still problematic.

This just leads back to the discussion about minions and swarms. In 4e I had more combats, and more interesting combats, involving giant hordes of weaker enemies than I ever did in AD&D or Rolemaster.
Yes, it does, and back to the treadmill illusion, as those minions and swarms will be of about the party's level, again.
 

Picked 3e.

We played Gygax’s dangerous Journeys for a couple years after playing 2e and my friend and I tried to design a more skill based version of D&D for our group. (Dangerous Journeys was all skills but super complex). Then 3e came out before we could finish it and we looked at the rules and said, “this is the game we were trying not to make!”
 

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