Allignment Problems in my Campaign: Chaotic Neutral or just Annoying...

Agamon · Mar 13, 2002

Those that outright ban CN probably don't understand the alignment and likely have a player exploiting that (though the player probably doesn't understand it, either).

CN doesn't mean "act however you want at any given time". It also doesn't mean "act as a different alignment whenever it suits you with no consequences". Sure he can be unpedictable, but he doesn't have to be. He can be anti-authority, or a loner.

All characters should have base personality traits that they adhere to, even CN ones. In fact, IMG I tell the players what the alignment of their PC is from the personality descriptors they give me. I have a CN in the group. He has a low (6) Charisma and is a ranger. He's quiet, very much a loner, hates being in cities or dungeons, away from the wilds where he lives, and when he does speak, he's often extremely rude. He also cares more about his animal friends than he does other people, even other members of the party. He roleplays this pretty good, and he's never gone off on some rampage and blamed his alignment.

I think the problem is less with the alignment, and more with the players. If they take CN, just so they can be jerks or pretend they have multiple personality disorder to exploit the game, I'd give 'em the heave ho, leave the rules where they are.

Humanophile · Mar 13, 2002

This discussion is going around in circles, so I may as well throw in my opinion every time player choice vs. DM vision/stomach lining comes up...

Anything and everything can be roleplayed well, in the hands of a sufficiently mature, capable roleplayer. However, some things are easier to roleplay than others, and some are more likely to cause problems, either in game or out, than others. And contrary to popluar belief, not every gamer is a good roleplayer. I'd hazard to say that most aren't.

Just because you can (or think you can) play CE effectively, or play play a dragon in a 1st level, core PHB party, or handle tricky subjects (homosexual/transgendered/culturally different/etc.) well in game, doesn't mean that most players can. Nor does it mean that any random DM who doesn't know you should leave those options open, just in case they happen across a good roleplayer. More often, those campaigns will become a sick mockery of player advocate goals: PC's driven by ego, wealth, and stomach churning atrocities.

IMC, if you want to prove yourself capable of an inherently difficult role, pull off a simpler one with finesse first. After all, if you're capable of playing a NE transsexual necrophiliac well, you should be chock full of more mainstream characters you'll devote your roleplaying skill to equally.

LostSoul · Mar 13, 2002

I think that if your character's behaviour disrupts the game and group, then you should reconsider how you play.

I think the same things go for DMs. If your rules disrupt the game for the group, then you should reconsider them.

gubaru · Mar 13, 2002

I agree with Humanophile's take on hard to roleplay character elements. It's the way I handle it, as well.

Back to creamsteak's problem. I think it's a player problem not an alignment problem. I bet he'll be just as annoying to you and problematic for you with a LG character.

Creamsteak · Mar 13, 2002

Note: Sir Osis, are you on my mailing list? Did I send you my newest PDF? Yes, I tried to play it, but right off the two CN guys started drinking (something that none of my other players would even CONSIDER doing during a game... especially since most of them do not drink...) and the game flopped right off, mostly becuase of too many players and not enough thought into their characters. About a half an hour into the game I dropped it and told everyone to meet at my friend Kevin's house next week so we can do something we have never done before: a character creation night/meeting.

To everyone: Well like I just said, I am having a meeting night. One of the CN characters is too lazy to go... (his mistake, he just won't get a say in how the campaign will run) and we are going to basically walk through the DM guide. I pulled out a ton of information to ask my players about, such as if they prefer a tailored campaign or a status quo campaign. It should be very helpful.

Because of you guys, I decided to annotate a new section to talk about: What allignments mean... It will probably be saved for last because it will result in more disagreements than other parts... and I would rather have everything ELSE figured out before I end up getting rules lawyered by my players (one of the WORST things in the world in my opinion).

Back to creamsteak's problem. I think it's a player problem not an alignment problem. I bet he'll be just as annoying to you and problematic for you with a LG character.

It is a player problem... but I think I want to narrow his excuse margin, he uses the CN as an excuse. He would probably do similar things as a LG but if I narrow his margin I thought it may help... It may not, I don't know...

Someone stated that I should turn him loose on his party. I definitely see this as a possible action to take. He is always "asking" for work and expecting to be handed a reward... so here is a temporary plan if he does what he does...

Some NPC dislikes one of the characters for some reason... it could be as mundane as the guy looks funny.

The NPC approaches our CN guys and asks them to knock the guy off, they pay some small partition of gold upfront and expect to be paid more...

The PC may follow the lead... if so then I already won... becuase he will piss off the PC's and after he gets away (he will whine till he gets an excuse) then he will NOT get paid...

Actually just NOT paying him may help influence him more than BANNING his allignment. But I am not afraid to Ban it if it is a problem.

Kichwas · Mar 13, 2002

Psion said:
If you want to play a CN character, along with the character sheet you must provide me with a description of what motivations your character would have to participate in the kind of altruistic quests that mark my game.

I've actually been considering requiring this of all PCs.

CN is all too often used as an excuse alignment for those who want to play with utter amoral abandon.

There's a place for such roleplay; but not in my games.

In my opinion a properly CN character is not amoral at all. They are actively opposed to order and group unity but care nothing about the good and evil axiom. But it's rare to see it played this way. I did ban the alignment in my last game in order to head off these troubles. But it didn't help; I just got LG, CG, and whatever PCs that behaved the same way.

So I think the answer really does lie in what Psion's trying to get players to do and then in finding some trick to get them to stick to it... That last part is the hard task with no 'magic answers'.

Players who are a disruption with one alignment will be a disruption under any other alignment as well.

A good player could take the most amoral annoying PC and play it in a way that improved the game for all involved; 'tricking' the character into going along by a series of events and choices that just happened to put them into the action in a constructive way.

Dark Jezter · Mar 13, 2002

I have noticed that a lot of people who dislike chaotic neutral characters say that the characters are inconsistant, but listen to this exerpt from the Player's Handbook:

"Remember that a chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random."

I think a lot of people don't understand CN characters. Having played a couple of CN characters myself, I'll try to show my interpretation of how a CN character may act...

A chaotic neutral character looks out for number one, he almost always has a selfish streak, but may be willing to make sacrifices for people close to him. He values his freedom, and dosen't take kindly to people trying to push him around or influence his descisions. Being a free spirit, the chaotic neutral character likes to stand out from the crowd. He lives for the moment, rarely planning for the future more than a few days or weeks in advance. A chaotic neutral character might see someone who dedicates their lives to serving a cause (paladins, for example) as foolish and out-of-touch with the "real" world. A chaotic neutral character won't kill innocents, but tends to be merciless towards his enemies. Some examples of a chaotic neutral character might be a barbarian warrior (think Conan), a rogue who is looking to lift a few gold pieces from a careless merchant, and a gambler who relies on chance to earn his living.

Anyways, this is just my interpretation. I guess there are no bad alignments, just bad PCs (or DMs). ^_^

SHARK · Mar 13, 2002

Greetings!

Hmmm...I ban all evil alignments from play. I also generally ban Chaotic Neutral. It's just a matter of alignment, conviction, and religion. The party usually has LG, NG, LN, and a few CG. The party composition just really wouldn't tolerate super-individualistic/selfish characters that can't work well with the team. Even if the other players just didn't execute such a renegade character, the social problems would be unending. CN doesn't really lend itself to working well within the party.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

EarthsShadow · Mar 13, 2002

This is what I have found out in my personal experiences everytime I have seen CN played by someone: CN 9x out of 10, doesn't lead to chaotic evil, but neutral evil instead.

NE is the alignment that the person thinks just for himself, and does only what is in the best interest for himself. He doesn't really care for the law or chaos, but himself only, and he doesn't care what he has to do to get his way, or his methods.

CN is the alignment that a person is a free spirit, doesn't like laws, and 9 out of 10 people fall into a trap that they even don't realize that when they think of free spirit, they can do whatever they want no matter what as long as it benefits themselves and no other, hence the lead to neutral evil.

Because of this, NE is the easiest alignment to play when you want to play CN, and CN is the hardest alignment to properly play that is in the game.

Black Omega · Mar 13, 2002

I think the next evil alighment I want to try playing is LE. Really, it seems like this could work well with any group that doesn't have a paladin. Work out a strong sense of honor that simply has a ruthless edge. Works well with a group, works well with rules and discipline. Just so much easier to play chaotic.