Help with an Alchemist Class

Using 3E at the moment, may convert to 3.5 at some point. I've been working on a campaign setting which shuns arcane magic, divine magic is elemental worship and druids. it is a post-apocolypse setting. Largely fantasy, with elements of technology.

I want Alchemists to be a class. What an Alchemist can do is as follows:
1 - make lots of stuff (replacement limbs, gunpower, special bullets with spell-like effects, other goodies)

2 - proform "alchemical transmutations" (create a spear out of sand, change water into wine, etc).

Limits on the transmutations are:
1 - Equal Value exchange. You can't turn a pebble into an ocean.
2 - No human transmutations. You can't bring back the dead. No "plastic surgery". No putting wings on a human by combining a bird with human.

benefits - all such transmutations are perminent.

I'm looking for a way to work out the transmutations via D&D rules but I don't want them to be "just another flavor of magic." So, I'd really like something that isn't just spell levels and spell effects.

I have a loose system worked out using the alchemy skill for the transmutations, but I can't seem to get it balanced. I want a low level alchemist to be useful on an adventure. But I want a high level alchemist to be impressive. The way I've been setting it up either low level are too powerful, or high level are too weak.

Any ideas? here's the chart I've been working with:
Task DC Notes
---- -- -----
Base DC 5
Per lb. weight +1
Class change +10 metal, gem
Kingdom change +20 animal, vegetable, mineral

Oh well, the system I've been developing is very near to what you've said and you're looking for...
For now, I've been a little slowed down by university but I've written some 170 pages so far of alchemy and weird demiurgical stuff. The only problem it's that those "some 170 pages" are now totally chaotic and in Italian!

And well, to be honest, I've been using something you could think it's "just another flavor of magic". I've got ten levels of "power" (the term it's opera in Italian, I think I could translate it as work or opus as in Great Work or Magnum Opus) and there is a "works per day" system... but I think this had been necessary to create a balanced and coherent system. If you don't dislike this too much, I assure you there are many other differences that make the alchemy demiurgics system unique. Or if not unique, at least interesting and worth a little discussion if you like.

If you like a skill-based Alchemy, I suggest you to read Alchemy & Herbalists from Bastion Press.
I think that this is good, but D&D is not a skill based system and you have to screw it a lot to make something decent and balanced only by setting some "Alchemy check CDs". IMO, of course.

I care more about the class being interesting, balanced, and open for PC inventiveness than how it works exactly. I want it somewhat open ended so the PCs can suprise me and be creative, but not so open ended as to break the game.

I'm interested in the ideas you've been working on, and it's a shame I don't understand Italian. Care to share a bit more?

Dear god... something tells me you've been whatching Full Metal Alchemist it rocks! (for those of you who don't know, Full Metal Alchemist is an anime series where the main characters get into a bad mess after trying human transmutation).

Most of it seems though taken directly from the series (the 3 episodes that have been released, anyways). I was also thinking about this, a bit, but I don't think I'd want to add alchemists to my Rokugan adventure

Anywhos, the trick would be to balance them correctly, and even create 2-3 variants of the alchemist.
Main alchemist would be the general alchemist, with some colorful abilities sprayed across the levels with a low BaB and perhaps d6 hp, along with 4+int skill points. Likely have a alchemy progression (something like spells for wizards, just different).
Then have the warrior alchemist, sorta like the psionic warrior, with interesting things like "spontanious weapon summoning" and "alchemy without a transmution circle," each taking two "alchemy slots" (sorta like spell slots from AU).
I'm sure any one of us that's seen FMA aggrees that there are endless more ways to make further classes.

yes, FMA is my inspiration for this class, but I wanted alchemy in the setting before I saw the anime . Here's what I have thus far (i hope the cut and paste doesn't look horrible)...:

Game Rule Information
Alchemists have the following game statistics.
Abilities: Intelligence determines how skillful an alchemist is with the skill of alchemy, and how many skill points they receive per level. Many of an alchemist’s class skill are based on Intelligence. Constitution increases an alchemists hit points and is this important. Constitution is also important for the Concentration skill, which allows an alchemist to perform their art regardless of distractions. Dexterity is also important for an alchemist as it makes them harder to hit.
Alignment: An alchemist must be Lawful, but may be Good, Neutral, or Evil.
Hit Dice: d8

Class Skills
The alchemist’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Alchemy (Int), Alchemycraft (Int), Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (alchemy) (Int), and Profession (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the alchemist.
Armor and Weapon Proficiency: Alchemists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient in the use of light armor, but not with any shields. Armor heavier then light can interfere with the transmutations that they perform, which can cause the transmutation to fail. Light armors do not suffer this restriction, but otherwise use the Arcane Spell Failure percentage for medium and heavy armor.
Alchemy: In addition to being the undisputed masters of the art of creating alchemical substances an alchemist can also perform amazing transmutations. These alchemical transmutations allow an alchemist to change one non-living object (or set of connected objects, or a partial object) into another.
Objects can only be transmuted if they are of similar weight and the same general class of object. A class of objects is what element it represents (earth, air, fire, water). Thus, sand could be turned to steel, and water turned to wine; water could not be turned into stone, and air could not be made solid. Weights must be similar; you cannot change 1 pound of stone into 10 pounds of sand, or 3 pounds of steel (though you could partially transmute the stone, leaving 7 pounds of stone).
An alchemist’s level limits the amount of material that an alchemist can transmute. Alchemical transmutations can craft finished items, but the alchemist must possess the appropriate craft skill and succeed the skill check against an appropriate DC as outlined in the craft skill description.
There is one more limitation on an alchemist: in order for an alchemical transmutation to work it must be contained within an Alchemical Circle. It takes an alchemist 1d6 rounds to draw a circle (chalk, charcoal, ink, or tracing a pattern in sand all work). There is a feat, Eschew Circle, which does away with this requirement (required level of 3). An alchemist must either touch the item that is being transmuted, or touch the circle containing the item. If an alchemist attempts to transmute a held/worn item the alchemist must first make a touch attack against the item the owner is allowed a will save to prevent the change. A transmutation that would effect a creature generally allows a reflex save to get out of the way. The DC for these saves is 10 + alchemist’s Int + Alchemy level
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Alchemy I (1lb.), Alchemy Feat
2 +1 +3 +0 +3
3 +2 +3 +1 +3 Alchemy II (5lb.)
4 +3 +4 +1 +4
5 +3 +4 +1 +4 Alchemy III (10lb), Alchemy Feat
6 +4 +5 +2 +5
7 +5 +5 +2 +5 Alchemy IV (50lb.)
8 +6/+1 +6 +2 +6
9 +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Alchemy V (100lb./10cu.ft. per level)
10 +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Alchemy Feat
11 +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Alchemy VI (500lb./10cu.ft. per level)
12 +9/+4 +8 +4 +8
13 +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Alchemy VII (1000lb./10cu.ft. per level)
14 +10/+5 +9 +4 +9
15 +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Alchemy VIII (1000lb./20cu.ft. per level), Alchemy Feat
16 +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10
17 +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Alchemy IX (1500lb./20cu.ft. per level)
18 +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11
19 +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Alchemy X (2000lb./30cu.ft. per level)
20 +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Alchemy Feat

Allright, it's obvious you're more into the warrior alchemists than I first proposed (both moderate HD and BaB), but that's all good I s'pose (if it's the way you see it, then that's all cool).

But I wouldn't exactly restrict it to weight, what they can do with the materials. Because, well, let's face it. Once you're level 9, you hardly need any more alchemical skills, as you almost undoubtably can create anything a common adventurer might need (and a load of weapons). I'd rather go for quality of the items. Assuming you're using the series as a good referance, early on the main characters are able to attempt human transmutions, as there doesn't seem like that much of a limit later on to what they can do.

Like I said, I'd rather go for quality than quantity, saying that at earlier levels, you might be lucky to make a decent short sword, whereas later on, you can go on making masterwork devanian greatswords, and so on. Of course, it's not restricted to just humans, as you could likely create creatures that would follow your will (drones). As could you create defensive barriers, and many of the things that spells can do. It wouldn't be a bad idea to raid a couple of the spells from the core book, and try it out.

note: when I say create, I of course am not defying the law of equal exchange, I'm just saying what I alwas say... create

perhaps I should change some of the alchemy levels from weight to bonuses to the alchemy skill or craft skill checks? higher craft checks would allow for greater quality. Part of the alchemy feats I was thinking about were things like "Keen Edge" where you can give a weapon a sharper edge (+1 to hit, or somesuch) that would last for a day, or some number of combats (until the edge became duller again).

To tell the truth I wasn't sure how to differentiate the levels of alchemy. Though I had thought to include a special ability mimicing the summon monster or astral construct abilities, probably astral construct... this would model when the characters animate the statues.

I like the ideas you have Inari . Perhaps I should allow for seperate combat and caster alchemists, in the line of psion and psiwarrior. As a side note i'm making the alchemists the creaters / installers of automail also. I will probably make that a feat or something.

I would suggest limiting alchemists on "value" rather than weight. Not only because the characters in Full Metal Alchemist have so much trouble with bringing life to the dead - but also because 20 pounds of wood is nowhere near as game altering as 1 pound of alchemist's fire.

On the swag end - remember that a character who "makes cool stuff" is inherently not a player character. Don't make the Star Wars mistake of having the people who make the best Lightsabers be the people who can't use them. Rational play just has them give all their fly gear to the party fighter and then become a marginal character in a story about the Fighter. It's no fun for anyone.

I strongly suggest that you have the alchemists get the ability to make temporary gadgets which only they can use - in order to fit into the same basic game balance role as a Wizard with spell slots - rather than as a plot device for why the rest of the party has awesome gadgets.

-Frank

How would you scale the value limit on the characters? In my most recient version i do away with quantity limits other then "10cu. ft. / level" (a popular D&D restriction on all sorts of magic-like things).

As for "temporary gadgets which only they can use" I was just writing some feats and one of them was "Alchemical Ammunition" (there are guns in my world) which are basically bullets with spell effects in them (Casters if you are familiar with Outlaw Star). I could easily say that those are limited to use by alchemists because they need to "finalize" the shot before fireing (or simliar). Also, I can just as easily say that only alchemists are automatically proficient with firearms and explosives (requireing feat expendature by other classes to catch up).

One of the campaign-specific oaths that an alchemist needs to take is that they won't create something of value just to get rich (bascally), just so I don't need to worry about PCs devalueing gold by creating 5 tons of it to try to buy what they want *eye-roll*.

In all I am hoping that any alchemist PCs I DM for would use their abilities to creatively solve puzzles / problems and craft on the side (filling up the role magical items generally play, or coming close).

By the by, all the feedback is really helpful in gettin the old gray matter moving

The thing is that currently stuff like Fabricate already allow the character to get unlimited piles of cash. I really don't have a problem with 9th level characters being able to buy everything that they ever need to.

As long as money is an object, it places extreme limits on the world that I'm just not comfortable with:

FrankTrollman said:

Costly materials don't balance anything, which is why they are a bad idea.

The amount of character "wealth" - in terms of game mechanically affecting stuff such as tools, magical objects, and adventuring equipment is to the most important extent alloted to the party by the DM.

If the players expend some of that casting spells, the DM will have to make up for it in the placement of more equipment in treasure piles if he wants to maintain the game in the manner he was planning in terms of relative "wealth".

If the DM did not have a goal for party "wealth" - then any semblance of balance with regards to party "wealth" is a hillarious joke. And if the DM did have a goal for party "wealth" he's going to have to take costly material component expenditures into account.

In short, if the game is even attempting to be balanced in terms of equipment - the cost of the costly material components factors out of the equation - it simply gets added to expenditures and to income and never gets heard from again.

-

However: why should we care anyway?

As things currently stand, characters get their money bins filled at level 9 when the Wizard gets Fabricate and the Cleric gets Plane Shift.

That's a stupid way for your monetary woes to go away, but why should they really be there at that point anyway?

You're a level 9 character. At this point, you've overcome approximately one hundred and four obstacles - any one of which could have been the major plot hook for a fairy story. Sooner or later, you're just going to marry the Princess and become the Prince.

And that level is ninth level. At ninth level you qualify for "Land Lord" - where you simply take a feat and arbitrarily become the Prince.

That doesn't kill adventuring possibilities. Prince Charming still adventures, he just doesn't stop in the middle of assaulting the Witch Queen's Black Tower to figure out how much the tapestries are worth on the black market.

Eventually you just need a motivation for adventuring other than "amassing money". Dragons should have enough gold to sleep on. Slaying even a halfling-sized dragon therefore should be netting you a tenth of a cubic meter of gold - or roughly two hundred and eighteen thousand, two hundred and ninety five gold pieces. You don't have to do that twice to not need more gold for anything other than bathing or sleeping on.

The only meaningful way to make people not strip-mine the worlds of imagination is to make them no longer care about money by the time they get there. When you get to the legendary adventures of 9th-16th level characters, there should be statues with ruby eyes the size of your head, bridges made entirely out of amethyst, and tremendous gateways made of high-quality bronze.

And if you are actually trying to screw people for individual gold pieces at that level, they will stop the adventure in order to strip all the jade out of the forgotten shrine, loot the golden flatware of the lycanthropic and insane lord of the valley, and pry all the moonstones out of the eyes of the statue garden of the chapel of silence.

Prince Charming doesn't do that because he is the Prince, and he already has arbitrary amounts of wealth. Unless player characters also get arbitrary wealth they will strip the scenery for cash.

"Gold Piece Value" just isn't a limiting factor to Legendary Characters. It can't be. If they for some reason needed cash - they'd just go get it.

And while there's a certain cache to playing "Scrooge McDuck" or "The Quest for More Money" - these are comedies for a reason. You just can't take a story seriously if the primary motivation is supposed to be cold hard cash once the character has already captured four dragon hordes.

If the story is going to even attempt at Drama instead of Comedy - character wealth must become abstracted at Legendary levels. It just doesn't work to try to worry about characters' budgets down to the gold piece at levels 9 and up.

Click to expand...

So while the characters in Full Metal Alchemist had to promise not to create gold - I don't think there's any valid reason for them to have to.

-Frank