3e Conversions

maddman75 · Mar 13, 2002

qstor said:
Madman - Some of the conversions are for adventures that haven't been made an an ESD? Bastion Press can't find good copies of the modules to scan them all.

I have 3 files contact me off boards if you want to convert them.

What about offical sites for Dark Sun, etc. Are they immune to this? are all of the fan sites now going to be shut down?

Mike

I'd love to pitch in, but my plate's pretty full right now running the B.A.D.D. site. It does hit my site though, as we had conversions of several old dragons linked to the site.

Seems like linking to the ESDs would be the most time consuming part. I'm sure some wizard out there could hack together a perl script to insert the OGL and copyright disclaimer at the end of the HTML files. Not sure if the .pdfs would be so easy though.

Morrus · Mar 13, 2002

Leopold said:
Now if they said "In 60 days you must be in compliance or you will be shut down" I would agree to this. A moritorium on this would be preffered instead of the instant shutdown that just occured.

Is it right? no, But it's business and it happened and we must now find a way to either migrate the material to the new licensing schema or reconvert the material from scratch.

Now does anyone have the conversion library backed up anywwhere?

Just to make it clear: WotC hasn't said anything; they just sent me the file and asked me to post it publicly, which I did. Taking down the library was my decision. May or may not have been the right decision, but files have not been deleted; just removed from distribution.

dcollins · Mar 13, 2002

OGL Was Previously Disallowed

I'd like to point out that there's an extremely good reason why none of the documents in the current Conversion Library are compliant with this new policy: what the new policy requires, the old policy banned.

I started to do a few conversions and wanted to make absolutely sure I did it correctly: so, not only did I read Jim Butler's old comments, I also sent email to Ryan Dancey with a few questions. After a few exchanges, Dancey confirmed the following: not only was it not allowed to add the d20 mark to conversions (which I expected), it was also not allowed to release them under the OGL, with the OGL license attached (because it would violate the trademark clause in Section 7). So that's a solid part of why nothing in the Conversion Library has the OGL in it.

There are other problems with this new document:
- It doesn't look "final" (despite the title). The one I see still has redlined comments from an editor, which I can't imagine would be part of a final release.
- The policy only refers to ESD's, which seems like a giant oversight -- I bet most people were doing conversions from old hardcopies they had lying around.
- And of course, the "terminate at any time" clause is highly unnerving (I sure hope the current management doesn't also think they can do this to the OGL/SRD anytime they want):

Morrus said:
Hmm.. if they can revoke the policy, I don't think that I'm gonna be willing to start another conversion library and waste 2 more year's of work when they change their minds.

Yes, that's probably one of the most troubling parts of what this document is asserting.

Leopold · Mar 13, 2002

Morrus said:
Just to make it clear: WotC hasn't said anything; they just sent me the file and asked me to post it publicly, which I did. Taking down the library was my decision. May or may not have been the right decision, but files have not been deleted; just removed from distribution.

this is a good thing. Now if only we could get a small time to link them to the ESD and add in a few things it shouldn't be a problem.

I read through most of the infomration on the main page, some of the modules i know off the top of my head will not be that bad to add in a few lines and tack on the OGL disclaimer. Some will have to be gone over with a fine tooth comb, the problem lies in OBTAINING said modules since you have sealed them up and we can't fix them.

Would it possible for you to contact WOTC and ask them for an extension for the conversion? This way we can get in and change them if needbe or at least contact the authors and have them change it.

Is this messy? Yes it is. But it can be remedied with a good plan and a LOT of hard work...

Wolfspider · Mar 13, 2002

Is this messy? Yes it is. But it can be remedied with a good plan and a LOT of hard work...

Is this work worth it? Is it worth the hard work and the risk that the rules will be changed again on down the road?

EricNoah · Mar 13, 2002

Morrus said:
Yes, it was.

Hmm.. if they can revoke the policy, I don't think that I'm gonna be willing to start another conversion library and waste 2 more year's of work when they change their minds.

I'll admit that I'm disappointed. Given the amount of shameless pimping I do for WotC, I am sometimes somewhat disillusioned by them.

That's an understatement. I can't count the times I've had to "spin positive" on something stupid/sad that's come from the WotC brass. Blech.

I can understand them not wanting the full text of exisitng ESDs available in free conversions, but asking your average D&D player to wade through that legal crap and adhere to it? Unrealistic at best, hostile toward customers at worst. What's even more appalling is that WotC *wanted* conversions done by fans so there would be less of an excuse for people not to switch to 3rd Edition. Now that 3E is solidly in place, they throw up a barrier that's just big enough that your average person won't want to even bother. Clever!

It is indeed a hard day to be a WotC fan. This plus the layoff news plus the uphill battle to get MT out the door...

smetzger · Mar 13, 2002

Morrus -
I think you should send a polite email to WOTC explaining our frustration and discouragement. It should also ask some of the questions that have been raised here about the incompleteness and about how the document seems to contradict the OGL.

If you don't get a statisfactory response I suggest a petition.

Dahak · Mar 13, 2002

I've never been one to subscribe to D20 System Trademark License conspiracy theories, but this has definitely made me reconsider. What this looks like to me is an attempt by WotC to trick fans into creating Open Gaming Content for their ESD products, so they can re-release them as 3rd Edition works, and not pay a red cent to the person who did the conversion in the first place. I was working on converting the recently released Gaz1 and Gaz4 books, but I'll be damned before I watch Hasbro/Wizards lay off 100 good people, only to turn around and expect me to work pro bono for them.

Henry · Mar 13, 2002

Eric, I can imagine that this is DOUBLY hard on you - it was the main reason you started your site in the first place, and is why Morrus still kept up with it!

There is only so much spin that can cover up for bad decision making before it gets both obvious and silly. WotC needs to

A) publish this thing in a PDF and on their web site, and
B) consider that they are making it more difficult for fans to convert the material (especially products that HAVE HAD NO ESD made for them), and
C) it does nothing to stop true pirates from distributing or devaluing the actual ESD product. Almost all conversions I saw on this site, for instance, lacked only the OGL, and did not include any IP.

Are there even ESD's for G1-2-3, or Q1, or S1-2-3-4? I haven't checked lately, but I don't believe there are. What is the fate of such old classics as these?

Morrus · Mar 13, 2002

Responses from WotC's David Wise who, concidentally, is leaving WotC this week:

Furthermore, although it does have a version number(highly unusual for a document coming from WOTC), there is no POC and no official indication that this document in fact comes from WOTC(link from their website).

The document will be posted on the WotC site as well. I sent it to you and them at the same time.

My reading of it suggests that if a monster appears in 1E or 2E, you can convert it yourself. If it happens to appear in a non-SRD 3E product, then you can't use the official version of the monster, just your own conversion of it.

Your interpretation is correct. Note, however, that we are trying to convert all of our materials to SRD status as quickly as possible. In other words, if it's not SRD, wait. . . .

Can't the authors just go back and stick the OGL in the conversion document? And a statement like "this work does not challenge WOTC as copyright holder

As long as the document is in compliance with the policy, I don't see why not.

Hmm.. if they can revoke the policy, I don't think that I'm gonna be willing to start another conversion library and waste 2 more year's of work when they change their minds.

I'll admit that I'm disappointed. Given the amount of shameless pimping I do for WotC, I am sometimes somewhat disillusioned by them.

Our intention is certainly not to hose anyone over (a very legal term, I know!), but to protect our IPs as well as provide good legal guidelines for conversions. If the policy presents "issues," then please enter into a dialog with us (and PLEASE bear with our busy-ness). We're not the gods, against whom mere mortals can but rail and curse, but a company attempting to please its customers and protect its property at the same time, which is quite some challenge in this electronic world! I'm sure that accommodations for well-intended, legal activity can be achieved, as long as we operate in an environment of mutual respect and cooperation, and we work together to dissuade in-your-face troublemakers from ruining it for everybody.

Philosophically, WotC loves all the conversion activity, and the people who so earnestly undertake the work to make gaming easier for everyone. The law, however, often prevents us from turning a blind eye to activities that we appreciate. Please understand that WotC wants to help, not hinder, you, but we have to stay in business or there will be no D&D at all.