Poll : Do you allow godless clerics?

d4 said:

a religion without a god would have a clergy consisting of Experts focused on knowledge and social skills, not clerics.

Click to expand...

That seems like a rather insulting way of looking at Buddhism and Taoism.

Xeriar said:

That seems like a rather insulting way of looking at Buddhism and Taoism.

Click to expand...

what, that they are experts with a broad range of knowledge and interpersonal skills, learned through years of study and devotion to their philosophy, as opposed to have KEWL POWERZ granted by some divine figurehead? i fail to see how that is insulting to those of a more philosophical bent.

If i Dmed a game, i would allow godless Cleics. I would not even care what two domains they pciked. Although, only Humans would be able to be godless Clerics.

Then again, there would be Chaotic Good Ur-Priests in my game...

I must say that I have trouble with the idea of an Aristotelian cleric. Aristotelianism was physics; it was science. Understanding Aristotelianism didn't make you an adherent of a worldview, it provided you with an analytical framework. Magic derived from Aristotelianism is arcane magic: you come to understand your world's physics so you can exploit it. Aristotelianism doesn't demand allegiance; it explains the world; that's why it could be grafted onto Christianity so easily to create high medieval thought.

Teflon Billy said:

I wouldn't allow it for Flavor reasons.

A "Godless Cleric" is a bookeeper (at best)

I'm not even sure I understand the idea of a Priest who foloows no Gods.

Click to expand...

I'm mostly with TB on this one, although Dark Sun's "clerics" "worshipped" (drew power from) the elements, which I kinda liked.

What is a cleric, anyway? S/he's a catalyst for what we would perceive as a miracle. In a D&D game, the source of that miraculous event could be any number of different....persons/places/things. In AD&D 2nd Ed Priest Handbook they used to have the Philosophy of Man. I enjoyed having monks take that when I was a player.

I feel that any source of power that a mortal draws from to "fuel" spells, ASIDE from magic (which is latent energy) could be considered "god-ish". [old physics crap: magic = potential energy, psionics/deific influences = kinetic energy ]

Aww, heck...magic, psionics, holy powers, miracles, supernatural occurances--they all fall into the same boat somewhere on a metagame level. I'd require something to fuel a spell/spell-like ability, simply because it makes the game more fun!

Not allowing godless clerics can be a campaign descision, and I've got no beef with it. If Gods -> Matter -> Creatures, and that's why they worship them, and godless clerics are like "WTF?!", okay. That's no more a drastic campaign decision than outlawing Paladins, or allowing Shugenja. It's just part of how you define your world (though I still think it's misguided, but meh). A philosophy can easily be reprsented by a deity...you pledge yourself to Goodness and Protection, and there's a god for it. You pledge yourself to Evil and Destruction, and there's a god for it. You pledge yourself for Enlightenment and Self-Awareness, there's a god for it. I can live with that.

I have a LOT of trouble accepting that the very concept of a godless cleric is stupid, munchy, and nonsensical. It isn't. There doesn't have to be some dude in the clouds allowing the clerics to cast spells. To assume there must be is not only narrowminded, but also a house rule.

WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A DEITY?!

I can understand if that's not your personal preference, or if you don't allow it in your campaign. However, I can see no reason to think that there has to be one, or it's arcane, and there's no reason to think that things are somehow redefined because of that...how is a philosophy more nebulous than "some guy in the sun"? Or even more nebulous than Arcane magic, which doesn't even HAVE a source according to the SRD...the only 'source' for arcane magic is mentioned in that every bard spell has a verbal component...how is that more nebulous than adherence to a philosophy?

According to the SRD:

Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells. The divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.

Click to expand...

See divine forces? It's wonderfully open-ended...philosophies could be divine forces...Nature is called a divine force...the Moon could be a divine force...hell, by the rules, Paladins are *nessecarily* godless (instead gaining power from Law and Good), and don't need to appease any deity.

How does that mean we have to re-define divine magic?

Arcane magic, meanwhile, doesn't even specify a source, hinting that you could even cast arcane magic from a deity or divine force...imagine that....a Sorcerer could be a 'clergy member' in any world, and *actually* gain *real* spells from the deities.

It's also weird that those who have trouble with godless clerics have no trouble with pantheon-worshipping clerics, which is in effect ALMOST like allowing a cleric to choose any two domains ANYWAY....why do you have to have a pantheon?

There's no real balance issues (otherwise it wouldn't've made it through the intense playtesting of the Core Rules, and there'd be more advice in picking domains for new dieties than 'whatever fits'). There's absolutely no definition issues. Thus there is only the issue of personal preference...which is all well and good as far as it goes, but then you have to allow others to have equally as valid, if differing, personal preferences, no?

d4 said:

what, that they are experts with a broad range of knowledge and interpersonal skills, learned through years of study and devotion to their philosophy, as opposed to have KEWL POWERZ granted by some divine figurehead? i fail to see how that is insulting to those of a more philosophical bent.

Click to expand...

You are dismissing their faith as mere knowledge of the mortal realm.

Just because Buddhism, Taoism, Confucionism and others (including some forms of early Christianity) have no 'god' does not mean that they aren't spiritual - it's just that the existance or nonexistance of such a god is secondary to the point.

You might lump Confucianism in with Druids (make a class called honorary or something?)

The thing about Taoism and Buddhism is that they aren't about knowledge and interpersonal skills. I don't know why anyone would think that unless they haven't studied these religions.

Wraith Form said:

What is a cleric, anyway? S/he's a catalyst for what we would perceive as a miracle. In a D&D game, the source of that miraculous event could be any number of different....persons/places/things. In AD&D 2nd Ed Priest Handbook they used to have the Philosophy of Man. I enjoyed having monks take that when I was a player.

Click to expand...

Siddhartha Guatema walked on water too (according to legend) - amongst a large number of other miracles - but he never espoused faith in a god.

In fact, when asked whether or not there was a god, he refused to answer, because in knowing the answer you would focus overmuch on it and risk losing touch with your path along Nirvana.

I feel that any source of power that a mortal draws from to "fuel" spells, ASIDE from magic (which is latent energy) could be considered "god-ish". [old physics crap: magic = potential energy, psionics/deific influences = kinetic energy ]

Click to expand...

If you can accept magic and psionics, why not a faith in an understanding deeper than normal observation may know?

Aww, heck...magic, psionics, holy powers, miracles, supernatural occurances--they all fall into the same boat somewhere on a metagame level. I'd require something to fuel a spell/spell-like ability, simply because it makes the game more fun!

Click to expand...

We're talking about our own respective little universes here.

Taking your statement though, who says something isn't fueling it? The draw of Nirvana or the power of The Way, or whatever.

Like I mentioned, I had a campaign world where there were no gods (re, they all got smaxxorred) - and thus they needed 'replacement'. The way of it was - the Planet was, indirectly fuelling all magic - but to the 48 clerics of the world, it was because they had an understanding of how the world worked and, through force of will, they could manipulate it.

Xeriar said:

Siddhartha Guatema walked on water too (according to legend) - amongst a large number of other miracles - but he never espoused faith in a god.

In fact, when asked whether or not there was a god, he refused to answer, because in knowing the answer you would focus overmuch on it and risk losing touch with your path along Nirvana.



If you can accept magic and psionics, why not a faith in an understanding deeper than normal observation may know?



We're talking about our own respective little universes here.

Taking your statement though, who says something isn't fueling it? The draw of Nirvana or the power of The Way, or whatever.

Like I mentioned, I had a campaign world where there were no gods (re, they all got smaxxorred) - and thus they needed 'replacement'. The way of it was - the Planet was, indirectly fuelling all magic - but to the 48 clerics of the world, it was because they had an understanding of how the world worked and, through force of will, they could manipulate it.

Click to expand...

(in best Keanu voice): Whoa.

You're all, like, Matrixing out on me, dude.

My personal spiritual belief is, like, way different from what I'd accept in a D&D setting....err, or something.

See, my D&D campaigns tend to lean heavily on Planescape ideas (in fact, my current game is Planescape), so things like Philosopher-Clerics and other varieties of godless Cleric make sense to me-- as do Clerics who are dyed-in-the-wool representations of their chosen deity and woe be it unto them who would say otherwise. Right now, our only divine caster is a Druid, but we're about to pick up a Ranger and a proto-Blackguard. Amoung the available sources in the game is Oriental Adventures, which has a couple non-deific Divine-casting classes, and I have no problem with someone using those.

(Hell, I'd be happy to see a Sorceror/Shugenja/Mystic Theurge... we're more than a little low on the mojoslingers.)