Poll : Do you allow godless clerics?

Storm Raven · Nov 12, 2003

Kahuna Burger said:
I'd say you're missing the point, but its looks more likely that you're ducking it.

Actually, it looks like you are missing the point.

The cleric class represents divine casters... casters who derive their powers through some form of spirituality.

No, the class represents those who have divinely obtained powers. Spirituality doesn't enter into the equation at all. One could easily be a D&D cleric with no spirituality of any sort, so long as one had a divine power from which your powers spring.

The actual descriptions of divine power indicate that sentient dieties are only one source of it. There are numerous real world examples of diety free spirituality. Saying that they could only be represented by a magic free npc class is saying in almost so many words that "they aren't real religions". Its insulting and serves no purpose.

No, it says that they aren't best reflected by the Catholic church inspired deity driven class used by D&D. Your narrow view (all people who are spritiual must be clerics) blinds you to the fact that spirituality is not the exclusive province of clerics. In point of fact, clerics should be the exception, not the rule, like all PC classes. In point of fact, most individuals of a psiritual bent should be Experts or something similar, because clerics are rare to begin with. Assuming that certain spiritual devotions are better represented by classes other than the cleric isn't insulting them, it is reflecting the fact that the cleric class doesn't fit all spiritual paths, many would be better reflected by a a cadre of educated experts, or monks of various stripes, or adepts, among other choices.

With the exception of faith healers and other frauds, there aren't a lot of real world traditions that claim to give access to planned, controllable bursts of supernatural energy.

Have you read Exodus recently? Most of the classic clerical spells in D&D are drawn from there.

Therefore, NO religion should have "in D&D terms" spellcasting power. So I guess clerics don't exist... In fact, cleric is a class. Its used to represent a) a certain style of magic and b) a certain kind of character. I and others have easily fit characters unconcerned with gods, or even rejecting of gods into both the mechanics and flavor of the class with no problem.

You may think it does, but, of course, the designers of the Scarred Lands, Greyhawk, and Forgotten Realms disagree with you. A godless cleric may be technically permitted by the rules of the game, but they don't fit the character class design at all.

Storm Raven · Nov 12, 2003

Kahuna Burger said:
It seems like your players can't contribute to your world except by filling the roles that you've laid out and approved.

No one is required to play a divine spellcaster. Playing a divine spellcaster comes with associated baggage. If you don't want the associated baggage, play a different type of character.

Just to clarify your policy here, if someone wanted to play a non cleric class with an alternate religion (say a small one centered in their home village) would you reject that even as a background choice with no impact on the stats?

If it was a godless religion? And he wanted to play a cleric of that godless relgion? Yep. Rejected outright. Godless clerics don't exist in the campaign. All divine power has a specific divine source. Ideals and alignments don't provide power on their own.

If it was cast as a religion devoted to a minor deity that had not previously been detailed? Maybe. It depends on the deity and whether it fits into the campaign.

Kahuna Burger · Nov 12, 2003

Storm Raven said:
No, it says that they aren't best reflected by the Catholic church inspired deity driven class used by D&D. Your narrow view...

*snicker* that about says it all, doesn't it? You are so hung up on the idea that the cleric class is possibly inspired by the catholic church (no idea if it was orriginally or not) that you can't look at the options actually presented by the class as currently written, and I have a narrow view. Plonk and a half, sorry, no more time for this.

Kahuna burger

Kahuna Burger · Nov 12, 2003

They sure can contribute -- if they are willing to create a divinity that works with the existing cosmology

ah, that clarifies your comments nicely.

Kahuna Burger

Umbran · Nov 12, 2003

Storm Raven said:
Actually, I thought I did. For example, in each write up concerning a deity, I outlined the things that were important to that deity, and what sorts of characteristics priests of that divine power would be expected to emulate and promote. I'm getting the impression that the player in question didn't read the material on deities I gave out before the campaign started.

Well, here's the thing - handing a person a writeup does not constitute a "discussion".

Giving them a paper, allowing them to read it, and then asking if they understand, want clarifications, or have any problems with it would be more like a discussion.

Gamers are people, too. If people cannot be counted on to RTFM, then don't expect gamers to do so.

fusangite · Nov 12, 2003

I have another question of those favouring godless clerics: what are examples in history/myth that you are basing this role on? What philosophies have priests? I would argue that movements/institutions that are not theistic do not produce priests; they may produce scholars; they may produce philosophers; they may produce mages but are there examples of them producing priests?

jasamcarl · Nov 12, 2003

fusangite said:
I have another question of those favouring godless clerics: what are examples in history/myth that you are basing this role on? What philosophies have priests? I would argue that movements/institutions that are not theistic do not produce priests; they may produce scholars; they may produce philosophers; they may produce mages but are there examples of them producing priests?

The other side of the coin in such a question is what religions have produced clerics of the types we see in DnD, who have such a broad range of real power? The answer is none, which makes the question irrelevant; its symantics. The cleric class is simply a mechanical option, and I see nothing wrong with allowing it to represent the broadly spiritual as oppossed to any formal, dogmatic faith. And I think you will find that there was little historical division between arcane/divine abilities; it's a later pulp coceit.

Platonism and later forms of neo-platonism and the more parochial mysticism were all about bringing the spiritual into one's sense of real, which is what spells do. It's all fluff anyway, but I don't see how one can quible with an idea which is just as intuitive as gaining power from a burly giant who is both physical and something more.

Storm Raven · Nov 12, 2003

Kahuna Burger said:
*snicker* that about says it all, doesn't it? You are so hung up on the idea that the cleric class is possibly inspired by the catholic church (no idea if it was orriginally or not) that you can't look at the options actually presented by the class as currently written, and I have a narrow view.

The class, as currently written, is heavily influenced by its quasi-Catholic roots. Maybe you aren't able to see this, but even with all of the options clothing the basic root that are out there now, it still bears the clear marks of its origin. And as such, isn't very suitable for some particular spritual devotions.

Perhaps you were thinking that the class, with vast numebrs of the spells available drawn directly from sources like Exodus, a forbiddance against using edged weapons (now discarded), the ability to heal, and mastery over the undead and demons wasn't designed directly based upon a somewhat warped view of mideaevil Catholicism. If so, you need to do some more research before you start opining on what the class is or is not suitable for.

Your narrow view that "spritiual = cleric" is your fundamental failing on this. Clerics are but one expression the game system has for spiritual characters. The game has a number of others: adept, expert, monk, the various psionic classes, heck, even the wizard and sorcerer easily cover some theological archetypes.

jasamcarl · Nov 12, 2003

Storm Raven said:
The class, as currently written, is heavily influenced by its quasi-Catholic roots. Maybe you aren't able to see this, but even with all of the options clothing the basic root that are out there now, it still bears the clear marks of its origin. And as such, isn't very suitable for some particular spritual devotions.

Perhaps you were thinking that the class, with vast numebrs of the spells available drawn directly from sources like Exodus, a forbiddance against using edged weapons (now discarded), the ability to heal, and mastery over the undead and demons wasn't designed directly based upon a somewhat warped view of mideaevil Catholicism. If so, you need to do some more research before you start opining on what the class is or is not suitable for.

Your narrow view that "spritiual = cleric" is your fundamental failing on this. Clerics are but one expression the game system has for spiritual characters. The game has a number of others: adept, expert, monk, the various psionic classes, heck, even the wizard and sorcerer easily cover some theological archetypes.

Alot of DnD conventions were inspired by a midevil sense of the supernatural, but even in the Middle Ages the method one used to achieve alchemical metals and a number of things varied in the minds of those who partook in these activities. Many times mystics were explicitly not a part of the Church and did not buy into the Dualistic vision of reality that had become church doctrine (i.e. a kingdom of man and a kingdom of god). Many people thought that the world we live in was not at all real or essential and that it could be morphed through faith/wisdom as oppossed to relying on a proffessional priesthood to offer prayers to god and wait for the all mightly to impose his singular will on us all.

You are thinking with more of a Jerusalum mindset and less with an Athenian.

Henry · Nov 12, 2003

Ladies and Gentlemen, let's not stray TOO far into discussion of mysticism and medieval catholic mindsets. It's getting rather heated, which is fine, but I see it's starting to get a little personal, which ain't too fine and dandy.

Let's avoid any suppositions about one another's religious beliefs, also.

Also, to clarify a point, I do recall Gary Gygax once noting that Cleric influences were characters like Archbishop Turpin from "The Song of Roland."