Poll : Do you allow godless clerics?

Kahuna Burger · Nov 11, 2003

Oni said:
I wish I could check both one and two. Seriously they're bland and lacking the constraints that a diety places on the already overpowered cleric class.

but I've never actually seen a DM place any diety constraints on a cleric... it comes up with paladins, but not clerics, IME. And as a DM I'd be very likely to place very heavy constraints on a cleric who was philosophically based. Come to think of it, I don't understand the bland comment either... Which is more bland "I worship pelor, cause, uh, he's my god and they taught me about his ideals at the, um temple" or "I found that through my devotion to the needs of protecting and healing the weak, I have actually gained magical powers. Each morning, I meditate to rededicate myself to those ideals and become a vessel to perpetuate them".

To be fair "uh, I'm a cleric whose into elves and time... because elves live a long time... and I get cool powers by saying I like them..." probably comes in last.

yeah, I don't want to change your mind, I'm just trying to get at why people don't like philosopher clerics or whatever you want to call them...

Kahuna burger

Nifft · Nov 11, 2003

I would NEVER allow godless Clerics.

IMC, there are different views on the ultimate nature of divinity, and they're represented by different Divine spell casting classes:

- Clerics worship distinct gods, who are part of a pantheon.
- Mystics are monotheistic, worshiping the One Light.
- Shamans revere spirits of powerful ancestors and places.
- Druids draw power from the Green that flows through all living things.
- Cultists are just like Clerics, but they serve Arch-Devils or Demon Princes.

Each class has its own incompatible philosophy and world-view. All have real magic powers. The true nature of Divinity is up for discussion.

-- N

Kahuna Burger · Nov 11, 2003

Gothmog said:
and godless clerics are just a lame powergamer's copout IMO.

wow, all that mostly intellegent (though very focused on the societal feel you want for your campaign) commentary, shot to hell...

MeepoTheMighty · Nov 11, 2003

My campaign world has a whole bunch of gods running around. The major ones are all defined, of course, but I always give players free reign to detail a minor religion or obscure demigod or whatever. By the same token, I wouldn't really have a problem having them design their own philosophy, pantheon-worship, spirit-worship, or whatever else. Are there munchkinny ways to abuse the system like that? Probably. Luckily, I'm the best munchkin in the group.

Gothmog · Nov 11, 2003

Kahuna Burger said:
wow, all that mostly intellegent (though very focused on the societal feel you want for your campaign) commentary, shot to hell...

Well, IME, the godless clerics have always taken either Magic, War, and/or Destruction as their domains- the three domains powergamers often drool over. Calling a powergamer a powergamer doesn't invalidate an arguement. I had a few bad experiences playing with some godless clerics after 3E came out...never again. Their powergaming and the lack of restraint on their actions from being godless ruined the game for everyone else. I'm sure not all godless cleric characters are that way (including you Kahuna Burger), but you have to admit that it does often appeal to the powergamer to be able to pick and choose powers with no chance of retribution or deity restraints on their character.

Mercule · Nov 11, 2003

Cleric = sevitor of a god. A godless cleric is an oxymoron. About the only reason I can see to use it is if you're playing a beer-and-pretzels game and don't want to worry about religion or cosmology.

One thing that 2E added in that I truly loathe is the idea of a cleric of a "philosophy". Ick. About the only exception that I can think of is something like Dark Sun that completely changes the nature of the divine -- and there "godded" clerics are nonsensical.

I also require Paladins to serve a god.

Oddly enough, Druids explicitly do not gain power from deities in my games. They gain it from the very divine weave of things. A priest of Obad-Hai or Elohnna would be a cleric, not a druid; pretty much by definition. Of course, I'm not entirely sure that I don't see Druids as just an odd sort of arcane caster.

Likewise, I've never liked Rangers with divine spells. When 2E came out, I thought they made the wrong call in ditching the arcane spells and upping the divine spells. It should have been the other way around. Or give them no spells at all.

CRGreathouse · Nov 11, 2003

Gothmog said:
Well, IME, the godless clerics have always taken either Magic, War, and/or Destruction as their domains- the three domains powergamers often drool over. Calling a powergamer a powergamer doesn't invalidate an arguement. I had a few bad experiences playing with some godless clerics after 3E came out...never again. Their powergaming and the lack of restraint on their actions from being godless ruined the game for everyone else. I'm sure not all godless cleric characters are that way (including you Kahuna Burger), but you have to admit that it does often appeal to the powergamer to be able to pick and choose powers with no chance of retribution or deity restraints on their character.

What do you (anyone, really) think of my system for godless clerics' restrictions?

Alignments (Adp, Blk, Clr, Pal)
The spells come from one of the four alignments: Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law. Alignments do not grant powers except to those who follow their alignment. (Lawful good, neutral good, and chaotic good characters only may draw power from Good.) Characters who act in opposition to the chosen alignment lose their powers immediately. An atonement spell will restore the powers if the act was unintentional.
Gods (Adp, Blk, Clr, Pal)
The spells come from a single chosen deity. Deities grant and deny spells on their whims, but generally withhold power only for major violations and willingly accept those who atone back if they show sincerity. Deities only grant power to those within one step of their alignment (and sometimes less, e.g. St. Cuthbert and Wee Jas).
Nature (Adp, Drd, Rgr)
The spells come from the essence of living things and the power of the land itself. If the character acts in opposition to nature (wanton killing, destruction of land, etc.), he or she loses spellcasting and other granted powers until he or she atones. Repeated or flagrant violations may cause permanent loss.
Pantheon (Adp, Clr)
The spells come from the Pantheon as a whole. Powers are lost if the character acts in a manner inconsistent with the 2E TN alignment, but are regained upon a sincere atonement. The pantheon never grants alignment domains. The current members of the pantheon is as follows: Heironeous, Moradin, Yondalla, Bahamut, Pelor, Ehlonna, Corellon Larethian, Kord, Sif, Deptat, St. Cuthbert, Wee Jas, Nike, Boccob, Genos, Matrar, Obad-Hai, Ethi, Olidammara, Ebon, Kain, Kurtulmak, Tiamat, Crebar, Hades, Ares, Halgrin. Worshipers of the Pantheon are called Pantheonists, patheonists, or catholics.
Powers (Adp, Blk, Clr, Pal)
The spells come from one of the bodiless, semi-sentient Powers of the universe: Air, Earth, Fire, Negative, Positive, or Water. The Powers have no special agenda for the world except their own supremacy. Powers withdraw their favor if the character calls on or supports an opposed Power. An atonement spell will restore the powers if the use or support was unintentional. Those who draw power from Positive may not be evil; those who draw power from Negative may not be good. Powers do not grant access to spells or domains with descriptors opposite their own (Air vs. Earth, Fire vs. Water, Negative vs. Good, Positive vs. Evil). Positive allows clerics to spontaneously cast cure spells and turn/destroy undead, while Negative allows clerics to spontaneously cast inflict spells and rebuke/command undead. Powers never grant alignment domains.

Spatula · Nov 11, 2003

Gothmog said:
A divine character that worships a concept doesn't jive well with a western view of existence, which IS what D&D is based on.

So I take it that Monks are banned as well in your games.

Gothmog · Nov 11, 2003

CRGreathouse said:
What do you (anyone, really) think of my system for godless clerics' restrictions?

Alignments (Adp, Blk, Clr, Pal)
The spells come from one of the four alignments: Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law. Alignments do not grant powers except to those who follow their alignment. (Lawful good, neutral good, and chaotic good characters only may draw power from Good.) Characters who act in opposition to the chosen alignment lose their powers immediately. An atonement spell will restore the powers if the act was unintentional.
Gods (Adp, Blk, Clr, Pal)
The spells come from a single chosen deity. Deities grant and deny spells on their whims, but generally withhold power only for major violations and willingly accept those who atone back if they show sincerity. Deities only grant power to those within one step of their alignment (and sometimes less, e.g. St. Cuthbert and Wee Jas).
Nature (Adp, Drd, Rgr)
The spells come from the essence of living things and the power of the land itself. If the character acts in opposition to nature (wanton killing, destruction of land, etc.), he or she loses spellcasting and other granted powers until he or she atones. Repeated or flagrant violations may cause permanent loss.
Pantheon (Adp, Clr)
The spells come from the Pantheon as a whole. Powers are lost if the character acts in a manner inconsistent with the 2E TN alignment, but are regained upon a sincere atonement. The pantheon never grants alignment domains. The current members of the pantheon is as follows: Heironeous, Moradin, Yondalla, Bahamut, Pelor, Ehlonna, Corellon Larethian, Kord, Sif, Deptat, St. Cuthbert, Wee Jas, Nike, Boccob, Genos, Matrar, Obad-Hai, Ethi, Olidammara, Ebon, Kain, Kurtulmak, Tiamat, Crebar, Hades, Ares, Halgrin. Worshipers of the Pantheon are called Pantheonists, patheonists, or catholics.
Powers (Adp, Blk, Clr, Pal)
The spells come from one of the bodiless, semi-sentient Powers of the universe: Air, Earth, Fire, Negative, Positive, or Water. The Powers have no special agenda for the world except their own supremacy. Powers withdraw their favor if the character calls on or supports an opposed Power. An atonement spell will restore the powers if the use or support was unintentional. Those who draw power from Positive may not be evil; those who draw power from Negative may not be good. Powers do not grant access to spells or domains with descriptors opposite their own (Air vs. Earth, Fire vs. Water, Negative vs. Good, Positive vs. Evil). Positive allows clerics to spontaneously cast cure spells and turn/destroy undead, while Negative allows clerics to spontaneously cast inflict spells and rebuke/command undead. Powers never grant alignment domains.

Looks pretty good to me. If more people gave godless clerics these restrictions, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with it. I do have one question about your pantheon worshippers though. If they are supposed to act in a TN manner, wouldn't they have opposing goals/methods to some of the gods within the pantheon? For example, Bahamut, Moradin, or Tiamat? How would these gods act towards the cleric acting in their name, but sometimes against their interest? It could make for some interesting RP opportunities if the DM followed up on it. Also, where does the power from an alignment come from? And for followers of an alignment, can they use Commune, Miracle, etc since such spells call upon the power of a deity? Or Planar Ally spells since they are unaligned with any of the major powers of the cosmos?