Poll : Do you allow godless clerics?
- Thread starter Kahuna Burger
- Start date
Bagpuss
Legend
Kahuna Burger said:
None of what you have quoted makes mention of "godless clerics", it just mentions clerics that don't worship a specific or particular deity. By that I think it is implying clerics that worship a particular group of gods, say the Good part of a pantheon of gods.
I'm fine with that.
Altamont Ravenard
Explorer
It depends.
In the FR game I run, since there are so many gods and they are so active, I prefer, nay, demand, that every cleric, and every character, has a patron god.
In Greyhawk (ie vanilla D&D setting), I prefer to play a general cleric, or, if you will, I invent my own god that fills the concept that I'm trying to attain.
AR
In the FR game I run, since there are so many gods and they are so active, I prefer, nay, demand, that every cleric, and every character, has a patron god.
In Greyhawk (ie vanilla D&D setting), I prefer to play a general cleric, or, if you will, I invent my own god that fills the concept that I'm trying to attain.
AR
Mercule
Adventurer
Mechanically, no issues. Flavorwise, wouldn't even be considered IMC. Even the Greyhawk branch (which I use for beer-and-pretzels games).Gez said:
When the cleric casts Commune, who does he speak with? What entity is actually granting his spells? Etc.
As cool as the spheres were in 2E, the introduction of "philosophy" clerics (which was also mentioned in 3E DDG) was a horrible addition. It doesn't even border on reasonable, IMNSHO, except in very odd cosmologies (eg. Dark Sun, Ravenloft).
Sure, you could have a non-theistic monastic (or whatever), but the only way they could gain spells is to become Wizards (et al). Ancestor worship, I can vaguely buy into as granting spells, but the progression would be roughly what a Ranger/Paladin is capable of -- if Grazz't can't grant spells, I'm sure not going to allow a bunch of dead people do it. Drawing from the anima, I'd probably allow, but stat them as a Druid (which, IMO, borders on arcane).
Clerics of a philosophy, though? Not a prayer (pun intended).
Li Shenron
Legend
Hi Burger! 
Sorry if reply without reading the rest of the thread but I am quite in the middle or ehm... well my office... so I have to post QUICKLY!
I think totally-godless Clerics don't make any sense: a divine spellcaster is always described as someone who gains all his spells and unnatural abilities granted by some divine being. Every D&D books I have read follows this idea, and a Cleric completely untied to any divine source of power simply cannot make sense.
Otherwise, I think the rules as such are not meant to be used to have an atheist Cleric but instead to have a Cleric who is tied to a whole pantheon or part of it instead of being dedicated to a single deity.
In this way, it makes perfect sense to me to have a Dwarf Cleric who worships all the Dwarven pantheon, maybe with the exception of the evil dwarven deities, or a FR good Cleric who worship a set of good deities. An again you can follow this idea to have clerics of nature deities, of deities of magic, of deities of death and so on.
The only risk of this lies in players who only want to exploit the possibility of choosing for example one great domain from each of two different deities, wihch otherwise would not be granted both at the same time by an existing deities. But I can live even with that.
Sorry if reply without reading the rest of the thread but I am quite in the middle or ehm... well my office... so I have to post QUICKLY!
I think totally-godless Clerics don't make any sense: a divine spellcaster is always described as someone who gains all his spells and unnatural abilities granted by some divine being. Every D&D books I have read follows this idea, and a Cleric completely untied to any divine source of power simply cannot make sense.
Otherwise, I think the rules as such are not meant to be used to have an atheist Cleric but instead to have a Cleric who is tied to a whole pantheon or part of it instead of being dedicated to a single deity.
In this way, it makes perfect sense to me to have a Dwarf Cleric who worships all the Dwarven pantheon, maybe with the exception of the evil dwarven deities, or a FR good Cleric who worship a set of good deities. An again you can follow this idea to have clerics of nature deities, of deities of magic, of deities of death and so on.
The only risk of this lies in players who only want to exploit the possibility of choosing for example one great domain from each of two different deities, wihch otherwise would not be granted both at the same time by an existing deities. But I can live even with that.
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Gothmog said:
First, in my campaign, the Pantheon is not composed of all of the gods, just a subset -- generally the most powerful. There are always 27 members, though the members can change from time to time.
Second, worshippers of the Pantheon must follow the median path for the gods in the Pantheon. Right now, good and evil roughly balance, and there are slightly more nonlawful gods (CG, NG, CN, N, CE, NE) than lawful (LG, LN, LE).
The alignments are their own forces, much like the Powers, but newer. (Powers predated the alignments by thousands of years.) Clerics who worship a Power or alignment do not have communes answered by their patron, as they cannot (alignments) or will not (Powers) respond. Instead, these are 'pity' communes, usually answered by some philosophically allied deity, but sometimes unanswered.
Mercule said:
"A cleric of no particular deity contacts a philosophically allied deity" -- PHB p.211
But even if you don't want that, then you can always say that the spell allows the cleric to comprehend, for the most fleeting of moments, that indefinable unity of all things that have been, are, and will be; and this contact with the unity of all things allows the cleric to gain enlightenment into the matters of which he desires knowledge.
I came up with that in half a minute, after one of my players actually asked that very question in my game.
Geez people, what ever happened to creativity and like, you know, making things up? Isn't that what telling stories is all about?
See above. Answering this question is left as an exercise for the reader. Or possibly the character.
Last edited:
Henry
Autoexreginated
Usually for campaign-specific reasons, I don't like godless clerics. Mechanically, I see nothing wrong (especially because you can betray yourself as easily as any god), but for most existing campaign worlds (Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Maztica, Scarred Lands, etc.) it doesn't "feel" right to have a patronless Cleric. Some function just fine (Dark Sun, Diamond Throne, to an extent Midnight), but I don't think I'd allow an FR Cleric without a deity, for instance.
Deadguy
First Post
Bravo Hong! Nicely said, Sir!
Personally I have no problem with godless Clerics (indeed my entire setting, the Shattered World is predicated on there being no Gods). People's difficulties with the notion seem broadly to be that they cannot imagine a way for the genuinely 'godless' to touch the powers of the divinity. Perhaps this arises from the fundamental position of D&D that it doesn't define how 'Divine' power arises. From this absence different DMs have built up methodologies which they apply to their settings, and perhaps unconsciously carry with them. If your model of what divine magic is doesn't include the possibility of mortals accessing it without the intervention of a Higher Being, then he idea of a godless Cleric will inevitably seem weird!
But the model you use is the model you choose. And the open-ended basic game makes few assumptions about such power and thus fits in godless Clerics with no problem. Now individual campaigns will do what they do to fulfil their designed premises (conside my own campaign choosing no gods). But that doesn't preclude easily creating a campaign premise to explain the existence of the godless Clerics that are derived from the core rules. Or to put it another way "you chose to so limit yourself; you didn't have to."
Personally I have no problem with godless Clerics (indeed my entire setting, the Shattered World is predicated on there being no Gods). People's difficulties with the notion seem broadly to be that they cannot imagine a way for the genuinely 'godless' to touch the powers of the divinity. Perhaps this arises from the fundamental position of D&D that it doesn't define how 'Divine' power arises. From this absence different DMs have built up methodologies which they apply to their settings, and perhaps unconsciously carry with them. If your model of what divine magic is doesn't include the possibility of mortals accessing it without the intervention of a Higher Being, then he idea of a godless Cleric will inevitably seem weird!
But the model you use is the model you choose. And the open-ended basic game makes few assumptions about such power and thus fits in godless Clerics with no problem. Now individual campaigns will do what they do to fulfil their designed premises (conside my own campaign choosing no gods). But that doesn't preclude easily creating a campaign premise to explain the existence of the godless Clerics that are derived from the core rules. Or to put it another way "you chose to so limit yourself; you didn't have to."
I can work with the "godless" cleric of a philosophy in my camapign.
Becasue the major premise of my entire multiverse is the if the power of "Will", or if enough people believe it "tends" to become true. I say tends because it takes lot's of people and lot's of time.
This enables me to have deitys who want more worshippers for more power (thus sponsering clerics). A deity can exist without worshippers, but needs them to advance unless they are one of the five origional gods of creation.
It gives me ancestor spirits of great heroes of the past. People over time put faith in the ancestor and the concept gained power in that area.
And it makes "godless" clerics of a philosophy very easy...tap into the power of the primal concept of "light" and gain power from it...much like a deity does from having a domain of light...on a much smaller scale.
Much more detailed but that's the concept......also explains why cultists (fiend worshippers) gain power and why they fiends want to get more cultists.
(long explanation of why fiends have it harder to cross over to divine rank, not appplicable here)
Becasue the major premise of my entire multiverse is the if the power of "Will", or if enough people believe it "tends" to become true. I say tends because it takes lot's of people and lot's of time.
This enables me to have deitys who want more worshippers for more power (thus sponsering clerics). A deity can exist without worshippers, but needs them to advance unless they are one of the five origional gods of creation.
It gives me ancestor spirits of great heroes of the past. People over time put faith in the ancestor and the concept gained power in that area.
And it makes "godless" clerics of a philosophy very easy...tap into the power of the primal concept of "light" and gain power from it...much like a deity does from having a domain of light...on a much smaller scale.
Much more detailed but that's the concept......also explains why cultists (fiend worshippers) gain power and why they fiends want to get more cultists.
(long explanation of why fiends have it harder to cross over to divine rank, not appplicable here)
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