Poll : Do you allow godless clerics?

Deadguy · Nov 11, 2003

duplicate post

hong · Nov 11, 2003

Henry said:
Usually for campaign-specific reasons, I don't like godless clerics. Mechanically, I see nothing wrong (especially because you can betray yourself as easily as any god), but for most existing campaign worlds (Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Maztica, Scarred Lands, etc.) it doesn't "feel" right to have a patronless Cleric. Some function just fine (Dark Sun, Diamond Throne, to an extent Midnight), but I don't think I'd allow an FR Cleric without a deity, for instance.

Well, in the case of FR, the worldbook specifically says everyone has to have a patron. Or at least, those few without a patron tend to end up in never-never land when they die; so it's quite reasonable to say that FR clerics must choose a god.

Dimwhit · Nov 11, 2003

I like the idea of having Clerics with no God. Or, perhaps, having a Cleric who worships the Gods as a whole. The latter I think could also be a good reason for a Cleric to be able to pick up any two domains (probably the main reason to go Godless). If a Cleric worships the pantheon as a whole, I see it as the same, mechanically, as not having a God, and it works really well for roleplaying.

Mercule · Nov 11, 2003

hong said:
Geez people, what ever happened to creativity and like, you know, making things up? Isn't that what telling stories is all about?

Geez, whatever happenned to answers that were interesting and maybe compelling? I could shoot something out of my hindend, too. Doesn't mean I'd think it was anything but a turd.

The fact of the matter is that I think godless clerics are garbage, especially clerics of a philosophy. Regardless of what sort of an answer anyone dreams up, it comes down to "garbage in, garbage out" IMO.

Depending on the setting, I could see clerics of a "Force of Nature", like the elemental planes or some such. In a setting like this, though, you pretty much have to redefine what "divine" magic is, though. A forces cleric is really just a different sort of arcane caster -- instead of tapping into the "weave" or what have you, they are tapping into another plane. It definitely isn't the same as tapping into a deity -- not even close.

Umbran · Nov 11, 2003

d4 said:
personally, i just have a hard time wrapping my head around someone getting powers from something as nebulous as a "philosophy."

Think Aristotelian, man! To you, in your modern mindset, a "philosophy" is a nebulous thing with no real substance. An idea, nothing more than a construct inside the mind. But that'snot the only possible scenario.

Imagine that, in some sense, the philosophy has a real existance, outside the mind of the thinker. It is not sentient, has no humanoid body or face. It is more a force of nature. And one who's will lies close enough to the force can draw power from it...

Or, another way to think of it - wizards focus magical energies through the components of a spell. Psionics do so through mental discipline. Clerics do so by a different form of discipline - a nigh fanatical devotion to certain precepts. In all cases,if you "stick to the program", you end up with magic.

hong · Nov 11, 2003

Mercule said:
Geez, whatever happenned to answers that were interesting and maybe compelling?

Pearls before swine, I see.

I could shoot something out of my hindend, too. Doesn't mean I'd think it was anything but a turd.

Well, if you're going to keep spewing up turds, who am I to stop you?

The fact of the matter is that I think godless clerics are garbage,

Do you really know anything about what you're calling "garbage"?

especially clerics of a philosophy.

You need to get out more.

Regardless of what sort of an answer anyone dreams up, it comes down to "garbage in, garbage out" IMO.

Far be it from me to stop you polluting your game with garbage assumptions.

Depending on the setting, I could see clerics of a "Force of Nature", like the elemental planes or some such. In a setting like this, though, you pretty much have to redefine what "divine" magic is, though.

You do not have to redefine anything, except perhaps your self-imposed limits on what's possible in religious belief. By the book, a divine caster is a spellcaster who gains spells by performing a certain ritual at a certain time of day, and who doesn't have to worry about a spellbook or arcane spell failure. That's it. Everything else is gravy.

A forces cleric is really just a different sort of arcane caster -- instead of tapping into the "weave" or what have you, they are tapping into another plane. It definitely isn't the same as tapping into a deity -- not even close.

Deities are irrelevant.

Wombat · Nov 11, 2003

hong said:
Geez people, what ever happened to creativity and like, you know, making things up? Isn't that what telling stories is all about?

The question was "Do you allow godless clerics in your campaign?"

In my campaign I do not and will not, for stated philosophical reasons.

If you do and will, that is also fine.

It is not "lack of creativity", but house rules, personal taste, etc.

hong · Nov 11, 2003

Wombat said:
The question was "Do you allow godless clerics in your campaign?"

No, the question was "How does commune work without a god in charge?"

Hong "NEXT!" Ooi

the Jester · Nov 11, 2003

One thing that's barely been touched on that's very relevant to the discussion is whether the deities are independent from their followers or spawned by thier belief. Does the religion change over time? If so, it's prolly created by the collective belief of the followers. If this is true- if belief empowers the gods- then there's no inherent reason a sufficient amount of belief couldn't also empower a philophy to "grant" spells.

On the other hand, if the gods predate their worshipers, they probably are superbeings that throw tremendous amounts of magical energy around, granting it to their followers, and then there's a good chance that philosophies won't be able to "grant" spells.

Of course, there's no real reason why you couldn't have both superpowerful gods from the beginning of time and empowered philosophies in your game.

Um, also I'd just like to point out that not all real-world religions have gods either. That doesn't mean they don't have priests.

Mercule · Nov 11, 2003

the Jester said:
One thing that's barely been touched on that's very relevant to the discussion is whether the deities are independent from their followers or spawned by thier belief. Does the religion change over time? If so, it's prolly created by the collective belief of the followers. If this is true- if belief empowers the gods- then there's no inherent reason a sufficient amount of belief couldn't also empower a philophy to "grant" spells.

Right. Some people go in for this thing. If so, then we really aren't having the same discussion. I dislike the concept of gods flowing from people, and have in every one of the incarnations in which I have seen it.

I won't knock people for liking the idea, but since it leaves me cold, I really can't have meaningful positive input.

Um, also I'd just like to point out that not all real-world religions have gods either. That doesn't mean they don't have priests.

Quite right. But, since no real world religions grant spells, it isn't an apples to apples comparison. I've got no problem with an organization forming around a philosophy. They could even be called a religion. I just don't think the Cleric class is an appropriate way to represent them. If they have spells, then they would be better off being statted as a Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard.