Poll : Do you allow godless clerics?

adwyn · Nov 11, 2003

For nearly twenty years I have used a church of deicidalist "godless" clerics who have usurped the divine magic as a focal point of my campaign. In the beginning (i.e. 1st ed) I was ridiculed by a few players, but most took well to the concept. I later felt validated when the 2E Priest's Handbook included their more abstract clerics. I have also found it is the aspect of the campaign most remembered by past players, so up with the godless clerics.

the Jester · Nov 11, 2003

Mercule said:
Quite right. But, since no real world religions grant spells, it isn't an apples to apples comparison. I've got no problem with an organization forming around a philosophy. They could even be called a religion. I just don't think the Cleric class is an appropriate way to represent them. If they have spells, then they would be better off being statted as a Wizard/Sorcerer/Bard.

Or perhaps an adept. My point was simply that there are clergy (i.e. clerics, though the definition in the real world doesn't include spells and all that, of course) of religions without deities. Personally, I don't think the cleric class reflects well any priest type other than the medeival western-European type. I'm pretty fond of alternate core religious ideas (like OA shugenja, shamans and sohei, etc.) for flavor purposes, though it depends on the culture your character is from of course.

Kodam · Nov 11, 2003

Subtle Gods

Hi!

Nobody in my Planescape Campaign plays a Cleric at all but if s.o. asked I'd allow it. But I'd have the Player describe to what the Character is dedicated "good", "preservation", "change" or whatever. Then there wouldn't be so many options for domains left.
The lower level spells or domain powers come from the intense faith of the cleric only, no god has to be involved at all. When the character rises to fifth level (when he first gets 3. level spells) he'll have attracted the interest of some god by his former actions. For example by attacking the temple of one god, its one of this gods divine foes, by studying its a god of knowledge and so on. This divine being will then unbeknowst to the "godless" cleric "sponsor" him with spells for he still furthers that gods goals.

Kodam

tzor · Nov 11, 2003

Sometimes we make assumptions that are not in the rules. There seems to be an assumption that a "godless" cleric is a cleric who doesn't believe in gods or who doesn't follow any gods. But if you look at the SRD quotes the exact wording is "If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity."

This would allow a cleric who is devoted to a range of deities, including an entire pantheon, or a cleric who receives his powers from one or more deities without being specifically devoted to that deity.

There are some situations where a peronsal relationship with a deity is the norm within a pantheon and some scenarios require this. Temple clerics are good examples, even within a pantheon the cleric of specific temples is dedicated to the deity of the temple. But some temples are also for a general pantheon, others might be for a cross pantheon arrangement based on one or more factors.

I like to run highly modified Lankhmar campaigns. Here I take the question and flip it around. Not only do I allow "godless" clerics (although I have had none come up in my campaign) I also allow "clericless" gods. Why would the god of lawful good thieves (yes he's a bit odd in the divine head) want to have clerics for assistants. Instead his servants are thieves.

DiamondB · Nov 11, 2003

I have no problem at all with godless clerics. In fact they are a significant aspect of my homebrew world. In my campaign world, the ElF, Dwarf and Gnome clerics are all godless. The elves have 3 major religious philosophies, Life, Elemental Power and Arcane Power, with a couple of "prestige" philosophies as well. My dwarven religious philosophy is based around brotherhoods/sisterhoods, gaining power for concepts (i.e. the concept of War) as opposed to dieties. Gnomes are just a little wierd and are still in development, but secret societies (i.e. Masons) are more accurate for their religions.

Anyone interested in more info can click the link in my signature.

fusangite · Nov 11, 2003

Dimwhit said:
I like the idea of having Clerics with no God. Or, perhaps, having a Cleric who worships the Gods as a whole. The latter I think could also be a good reason for a Cleric to be able to pick up any two domains (probably the main reason to go Godless). If a Cleric worships the pantheon as a whole, I see it as the same, mechanically, as not having a God, and it works really well for roleplaying.

Hey -- I have no problem with pantheon-based clerics. They are probably closer to the flavour of my campaigns than single god clerics.

Umbran said:
Think Aristotelian, man! To you, in your modern mindset, a "philosophy" is a nebulous thing with no real substance. An idea, nothing more than a construct inside the mind. But that'snot the only possible scenario.

Thanks for bringing this up. No. Aristotelianism gives you an understanding of how physics/magic works so you can manipulate it. Aristotelian magic is exactly what I imagine when I think about arcane (especially wizard-based) magic.

Psion · Nov 11, 2003

Incidentally, the Platonic angle is the only way I could stomach the idea of "direct faith" in the second world setting. The philosophical ideal is not just an idea, it's a form that has tangible existence somewhere that forms the basis of reality. I can relate to it on that level (and since Peterson speaks of creatures like forms in the Forge, it fits in with the setting.)

But even that is more to go on than "faith alone" and has a credible difference from arcane magic.

Edit: Plato not Aristotle. Been too many years since Philosophy 101.

Flexor the Mighty! · Nov 11, 2003

I require clerics to have a patron diety. Most of the people in the Flanaess don't only worship one diety they will pray to the diety in the pathenon they believe in that has power over thier fate at that time. If you are a Suel and you are praying to avoid a deadly plague you may pray to Wee Jas, if you are praying for the power to lift a log off your son you may say a quick prayer to Kord, etc. However to get divine power channeled to you, ie spellcasting power, one must devote oneself to a diety mind, body, and soul.

Xeriar · Nov 11, 2003

I run a campaign where godless clerics are the only option available.

d4 · Nov 11, 2003

the Jester said:
One thing that's barely been touched on that's very relevant to the discussion is whether the deities are independent from their followers or spawned by thier belief. Does the religion change over time? If so, it's prolly created by the collective belief of the followers. If this is true- if belief empowers the gods- then there's no inherent reason a sufficient amount of belief couldn't also empower a philophy to "grant" spells.

On the other hand, if the gods predate their worshipers, they probably are superbeings that throw tremendous amounts of magical energy around, granting it to their followers, and then there's a good chance that philosophies won't be able to "grant" spells.

i think this is my main beef with godless clerics. in the worlds i homebrew, the gods always predate the mortal races and are independent of them. gods do not receive any power from mortals' belief and belief can not create divine power -- the relationship is strictly from the deity to the mortal, not the other way around.

that's only one way of looking at the situation, but it's the only one i'm comfortable with as a world-builder. so no godless clerics in my campaigns.