Spartan Training

Felix · Nov 25, 2003

Kahuna Burger:
I would take the normal spread for a city. Then kill off everyone with a con under 12. Yes, this will give you a smaller population, the spartans didn't have big numbers, they had tough cookies. Next make everyone with a str or con less than 13 a commoner.

As far as I know, it was only the Spartan citizens that were subjected to infanticide, brutal training, compulsary service in the army, and forced living in barracks. The commoners in this society could basically do what they wanted. They were the ones that actually held property, I think. The citizens had the privilige of running the government, and the responsibility of defending it; I don't think they were allowed property though.

Agback · Nov 25, 2003

PS.

If you google "Spartan boy fox" you get some interesting results. Some pages tell you that Spartans were taught to read and write, others that they were not. One page even tells you that all the Spartiates took an equal share in the produce of the agricultural land (if that had been true it would have solved a major problem, and the Spartan state would have been vastly stronger) and that Spartiates were allowed to leave the barracks and live with their wives as young as twenty. Another asserts taht Spartiate boys who failed a final examination at 20 became perioiki.

My advice: believe nothing that is not supported with quotes from a primary source.

Regards,

Agback

Endur · Nov 25, 2003

I'd give them extra levels of Fighter or Warrior. Extra experience is all they have. They don't have sub-races or templates or higher stats.

Agback · Nov 25, 2003

Felix said:
As far as I know, it was only the Spartan citizens that were subjected to infanticide, brutal training, compulsary service in the army, and forced living in barracks. The commoners in this society could basically do what they wanted. They were the ones that actually held property, I think. The citizens had the privilige of running the government, and the responsibility of defending it; I don't think they were allowed property though.

The full citizens (Spartiates) were certainly allowed to own real estate, slaves, etc. as well as of course weapons, armour, and other personal effects. They were forbidden from working at any gainful employment, even from working on their own farms. And all except the kings were forbidden from commerce. I guess they would have been in trouble if found to possess the tools of a trade, or traffickable quantities of merchandise. It is a strange irony that Sybaris was a Spartan colony.

In the Spartan state commerce and the professions and trades were pursued by the perioiki ("neighbours"), people of Doric race resident in Lakonia but not citizens of Sparta. And a third group, possibly not of Dorian race, was confined to a role like that of a mediaeval serf (but subjected toa more brutal repression than was common for serfs).

Regards,

Agback

Inconsequenti-AL · Nov 25, 2003

I seem to remember that weak babies were not actually killed. They were left out in the open air overnight. If they survived that then they were tough enough...

Friendly bunch, those Spartans.

As far as NPCs go, I'd just make them higher level - think that would reflect their training. For example, basic infantry are Warrior 2. For more challenge there could be Elite units of leveled up fighters. Would make them a lot nastier than most peoples armies?

Mark · Nov 25, 2003

Inconsequenti-AL said:
I seem to remember that weak babies were not actually killed. They were left out in the open air overnight. If they survived that then they were tough enough...

"Exposed" on a hillside, leaving their fate to the gods... (Sometimes snapped up by rural families who needed additional farmhands.)

Inconsequenti-AL said:
Friendly bunch, those Spartans.

Basically

Inconsequenti-AL said:
As far as NPCs go, I'd just make them higher level - think that would reflect their training. For example, basic infantry are Warrior 2. For more challenge there could be Elite units of leveled up fighters. Would make them a lot nastier than most peoples armies?

These might come in handy -

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=695

Mark Chance · Nov 25, 2003

Agback said:
And a third group, possibly not of Dorian race, was confined to a role like that of a mediaeval serf (but subjected toa more brutal repression than was common for serfs).

IIRC, the slave class in Sparta were subject to frequent wars in order to keep their numbers at a "reasonable" level and to instill fear of their Spartan masters.

Also, don't forget that, at least among the Spartan ruling class, there was something akin to equality between the sexes, a situation that didn't really play out in more sophisticated Athens where women were almost considered chattel.

Mark · Nov 25, 2003

Mark Chance said:
Also, don't forget that, at least among the Spartan ruling class, there was something akin to equality between the sexes...

Case in point -

Kyniska was the daughter of the Spartan king Archidamus. In 396 BC she became the first woman to win an event at the Olympic Games. It is said that she was the first woman to breed horses and that she invented the sport of horse racing. She wins for a second Olympic victory in (?) BC, and many other women including the famous Lacedaemonian, win Olympic competitions thereafter.

Null Boundry · Nov 25, 2003

Mark Chance said:
IIRC, the slave class in Sparta were subject to frequent wars in order to keep their numbers at a "reasonable" level and to instill fear of their Spartan masters.

Also, don't forget that, at least among the Spartan ruling class, there was something akin to equality between the sexes, a situation that didn't really play out in more sophisticated Athens where women were almost considered chattel.

The treatment of the Helots was one of the more nasty aspects of Spartan ideology (Probably because they were so heavily outnumbered by the Helots). Which considering the rest of it is saying something. As part of the coming of age ceremony for Spartan youths they had to take part in something called The Night Of The Long Knives, this involved them traveling into Messenia and killing any Helot they chose. This would usually invlove any that didn't look the subserviant profile such as having the nerve to look at a Spartan.

Most of Sparts foreign policy was evolved around keeping armies out of Messenia as they knew their treatment would cause an automatic revolt and collapse of their agricultural base.

Agback · Nov 25, 2003

Inconsequenti-AL said:
I seem to remember that weak babies were not actually killed. They were left out in the open air overnight. If they survived that then they were tough enough.

Indeed? I have never come across a reference to the Spartans going out and collecting the survivors, and have always assumed that when they exposed an infant on a hillside they left it there indefinitely, as other Greeks practising infanticide (but aiming to avoid the 'pollution' of doing violence to a relative) did. Can you point me to a contemporary reference to the Spartans reversing their judgments in the case of infants who survived the first night on Mount Taygetus?

'Mary Renault' makes the point in "The Last of the Wine" that the stories of children being exposed on hillsides and adopted by childless peasants or queens are probably a sop to the consciences of soft-hearted family members. Though of course it was possible.

Regards,

Agback