How to Build a Better Scout?

Garnfellow · Dec 1, 2003

Nightfall said:
Another option, look at the Warcraft Campaign Sourcebook. There's a Scout class in there.

Interesting. What sort of abilities does this class offer? Has anyone run a Warcraft scout?

Garnfellow · Dec 1, 2003

Elder-Basilisk said:
Yes, the proposed fighter mod is far too good. If you were to translate those feats into skill bonusses, they wouldn't add up to more than 8 skill points. That, however, is admittedly, not an ideal way of balancing things but I still think 60 skill points and a better selection for a mere two bonus feats is a bargain. (High level fighters often have more feats than they know what to do with anyway).

Yeah, I had a similar concern. On a hunch I also looked at only giving bonus feats every four levels -- so at 1st, 4th, 8th, and 12th level in exchange for the skills. It seems better balanced, but maybe is still too good.

Elder-Basilisk said:
I think that the ranger class is a more promising one to modify. Although I think favored enemy should be in line with the characters focus (Haldarin's comments are definitely to the point), it would probably be reasonable to replace each increase of it with a fighter bonus feat. With Fast Movement substituting for 1st level casting and possibly Uncanny Dodge substituting for 2nd level casting, and Imp Uncanny Dodge for fourth level casting, I think you'd have a reasonably balanced nonmagical ranger. (For reference, Ranger 10/Ftr 4/Bbn 6 would have equivalents to all of those abilities and more, so I think it's reasonably balanced against core classes).

For the record, this is what the modded ranger's class abilities look like so far:

1st - 1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy
2nd - Combat style
3rd - Endurance
4th - Animal companion, Fast movement
5th - Bonus feat
6th - Improved combat style
7th - Woodland stride
8th - Swift tracker, uncanny dodge
9th - Evasion
10th - Bonus feat
11th - Combat style mastery
12th -
13th - Camouflage
14th - Improved uncanny dodge
15th - Bonus feat
16th -
17th - Hide in plain sight
18th -
19th -
20th - Bonus feat

It looks a little weak right now, but then I haven't added a replacement for 3rd-level spellcasting yet.

I'm not too crazy about the combat style chain or the animal companion ability, but between the variant ranger, the alt.rangers and the WoT woodsman class, there may be some interesting outdoor abilities to plunder.

Garnfellow · Dec 1, 2003

Felix said:
I think probably the easiest solution is to swap out class skills for class skills. What wilderness rogue needs Gather Information, Diplomacy, or Knowledge (local) when Survival, Heal, and Knowledge (nature) are more appropriate.

I think this is the easiest and surest way to alter classes without making them too weak or too powerful.

I really like the simplicity of this approach. Other potential Rogue skills to swap out would be Appraise, Decipher Script, Forgery, and Sleight of Hand.

Steverooo · Dec 1, 2003

Ideas

One way to go that you apparently haven't thought of (which hasn't been mentioned) is Barbarian/Ranger/Rogue, with the first level taken as Rogue... Lots of skill points, faster access to Improved Uncanny Dodge, and an average of D8 hit dice. It still has the Rage problem, but I'd simply explain it away ("He has the ability, once/day, to get really mad and increase his STR & toughness for a short time, but it winds him"), or trade it out for a Feat.

Unfortunately, this means those Ranger abilities come much later...

Another way is straight Ranger, with all the skills. Favored Enemies can be whatever he fights. Spec Ops are trained to kill enemy soldiers (Favored Enemy: Humans). Sounds like FE: Humanoids (Evil), or FE:Giants might work for him.

For the spells, I allow folks wanting to play a non-casting Ranger to lose one spell slot per day (which would have been usable for any Ranger spell) for an Extraordinary ability that duplicates one of the spells on a permanent basis...

For instance, by swapping out the bonus spell for high WIS gained at fourth level, a Ranger can gain the Pass Without Trace Ex. ability, and become untrackable. Or, he could gain the "Weathered" Ex. ability, permanently duplicating the effects of Endure Elements, or have an Ex. ability similar to Alarm, which will wake him whenever a creature comes within a certain radius, etc.

As the Ranger would gain more spells, they may also trade away those spell slots for another ability. 2nd level slots gain Ex. abilities duplicating the effects of 2nd level spells, etc. A 2nd level slot, for instance, could grant a once/day Ex. ability to heal 1D8 HP... This is a trade-off for Cure Light Wounds...

Most of the things a Ranger's spells can do are really things that a survival expert should be able to do, non-magically, anyway. (There are a few exceptions, such as Protection from Elements, but then I don't allow that one to be traded for!)

So, your PC could trade one 1rst level slot for the effects of Longstrider, and get Fast Movement, anyway...

Shallown · Dec 1, 2003

Also A minor Idea is keep Barbarian and your con is the rage ability. Forget the word rage and substitute in Cold anger or Determination. Exact same ability but not a frothing lose control reaction but instead a steeling of the soul and a focus in doing something. I had a Barabarian/fighter who was starting down the path of mobile fighter who used many different weapons at like 3rd level in one fight I used 6 different weapons while Tumbling around (I had cosmopolitain feat to get tumble as a class skill) But the main point is rage doesn't have to mean RAGE. same ability different dressing/flavor.

just a thought.

later

Shazman · Dec 1, 2003

Another option could be the survivalist fighter variant from Dragon # 310. Basically, a fighter with more wilderness-oriented class skills.

ArcOfCorinth · Dec 1, 2003

Yes, the Survivalist variant fighter from Dragon #310 might be a good choice. He has Hide, Move Silently and Survival as class skills and a bonus feat list more situated for, well, surviving in the wilderness.

However, I have another suggestion. You mentioned you wanted a ranger-type character without divine spells and favored enemies. The variant ranger from Complete Warrior helps you out with the removing spells. Now, I suggest replacing each favored enemy with a bonus feat. The +2 on two skill feats are generally considered worthless by most people. They might be a good replacement though.

1st Favored Enemy- Stealthy
2nd Favored Enemy- Self-Sufficent
3rd Favored Enemy- Athletic
4th Favored Enemy- Alertness
5th Favored Enemy- Animal Affinity

That helps create a much more skill-focused ranger.

Marimmar · Dec 1, 2003

You might try this character (see below). Key to it's usability is a high intelligence. This guy has been created using the normal 25 PB method. He might not have Knowledge (Nature) but still has lots of Skills at a decent level.

~Marimmar

Lv 12 Human Fighter

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 8

HP Ave. 82

Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +6

Hide 14=7+2+2+3
Move Silent 10=6.5+2+2
Spot 14=7+2+2+3
Listen 10=6+2+2
Survive 16=7+2+2+3+2
Search 7=5+2

Feats: 1st-Track, Stealthy; 3rd-Alertness; 6th-Skill Focus (Survival); 9th-Skill Focus (Hide); 12th-Skill Focus (Spot)
Fighter-Feats: 1st-Weapon Focus (CLBow); 2nd-Point Blank Shot; 4th-Weapon Spc. (CLBow); 6th-Rapid Shot; 8th-Precise Shot; 10th-Greater WF (CLBow); 12th-Greater WSpc (CLBow)

Attacks:

Within 30 ft.:
Mighty (+2 Str) +2 Comp. Longbow +19/+14/+9 (1d8+9); Rapid Shot +17/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+9)