Opinions/Experiences/Advice on Sovereign Stone classes & magic system for low magic

After a bit of thought, I decided that most of the problems I have with the standard D&D system are fixed by the Sovereign Stone system. These are my perceptions of what is improved for me over the standard D&D system after my first glance (but not a thorough reading yet) at the system:

- There is no distinction between divine and arcane magic
- There is only one magic using class, no hybrids
- There are replacements for the D&D hybrid classes, like the mounted warrior for the paladin and the stalker for the ranger
- There are numerous non-magical classes to choose from, thus preserving numerous options for players while also lowering the commonality of magic
- There are no arbitrary limits on how many spells you can cast per day (no mana pool, no spell slots, etc.)
- The system encourages magic items to be more individually crafted with a history rather than being plug-in power ups as they are in D&D
- Since there is only one magic using class and no monks, the amount of magical gear is no longer a significant balancing mechanic between classes
- Finding and learning new spells is integrated into the game in a more story based way than a level-by-level power up way (if you find a spell and spend time learning it, you can cast it, regardless of level). For me this really invokes images of magi delving into ancient runes and poring over dusty tomes searching for rare and powerful spells
- Access to different spells is controlled entirely by the DM, rather than the player, allowing the DM to shape the nature of magic and the rarity of certains types of spells to make magic fit a specific campaign setting better
- Since magic is less common and the rules are more natural/fluid it is more mysterious and occult
- Since amount of magical gear is less tied to game balance, it's easier to keep the campaign wealth-poor, freeing you from the ghost of the treasure-per-level tables hanging over your shoulder
- No more teleport and no more ressurection. Those two spells are the number 1 & 2 setting-logic breaking spells in standard D&D. Yay!

Has anyone used this system in play (and let me know if you played in Loerem or a different world)? Can you evaluate whether or not these assessments are fair?

I'm thinking that these rules are really good for playing in a world like Kalamar, REH's Hyboria, Fritz Leiber's Lankmar, etc. where you want to tone down the overall impact of magic on the world, preserving it's mystery, but still want to maintain D&D epic heroic power levels. I want to start a campaign with a very Robert Howard type feel to it, so I picked up Sovereign Stone and the Codex Mysterium and it all looks perfect.

What adjustments need to be made with this system when playing in a world other than Sovereign Stone's world of Loerem? I imagine that I'll need to keep an eye on damage reduction and challenge ratings of creatures I throw at the party, due to less magic. Has anyone had experience in this area?

Also, has anyone tried integrating other D&D rules into a Sov. Stone game, like PRCs, converted D&D spells, etc.?

Finally, has anyone found any limitations or problems with Sov. Stone that I might want to be aware of and/or compensate for?

Thanks!

-Kenji

Judging from your breakdown, the Sovereign Stone system does look good -- but is anyone using it? I'd like to hear people's experiences too.

I have no experience with the system to speak of but you've just convinced me to buy it. It sounds like exactly what I've been looking for.

Also, how well does it integrate with existing D&D? How much would you have to tweak, say, the Sunless Citadel to make it work?

Davelozzi said:

I have no experience with the system to speak of but you've just convinced me to buy it. It sounds like exactly what I've been looking for.

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Hehe. Keep in mind that I haven't read it cover to cover yet and I haven't played in it either, so my assertions might be wrong. That's why I'm posting - to see if someone who has played it could say how accurate I am. Make sure to give it a good browsing through before you buy to confirm that I'm not totally off my rocker. I'd hate to be responsible for you getting something based on inaccurate info.

Nobody has any hands-on experience with these books? One other thing I noticed is that there is no alignment. That's always a good thing for me as well.

I will be using the Sovereign Stone system, along with WoT in the next campaign set in my campaign world. There are no wizards in my world, only sorcerers and clerics. I think the Sovereign Stone and WoT systems offer some great alternatives to the typical "load and shoot" D&D magic. I have only played a one-shot with Sovereign Stone, for fun, but I really liked it.

I've read the first novel: if the world is what you want to use read that novel. It really makes sense of things.

I've used the Ahrcer and Noble class. They balance.

I've run a Sovereign Stone mage once. I found spell casting to be so slow as to not be practical in combat. This can become a major issue as the levels progress if the pattern I saw holds throughout the levels.

Consider that every round you roll a 10.5 (average roll).

Your base roll is 0+ your level.

So at level 20 a mage has a +20.

To cast the equivalent of a '9th level spell' that mage will be casting for about 10-14 rounds (depending on the exact spell). By that time the fight has more than likely been decided.

Now consider a level 1 mage under the same situation. To cast the exact same spell the level 1 mage only needs 2 more rounds of casting.

Every round the mage is making a DC 8 save to avoid taking 1d6 subdual damage. Chances are even a level 1 mage will make about 70% of those saves.

So while they will probably go under before they get off the ultra powerful spell, they could probably get off a CT of 80 or so...

which is a very powerful spell...

But it will take them forever. However it will take a high level mage only 2 rounds less time.

Not a big enough difference...

The most likely choices for 1st level PCs in the damage spell arena are things like Fire Bolt. Medium range and 3d6 fire damage. CT 17 so a level 1 mage can cast it every other round.

Or they could use Flare, a ranged touch attack to do 1d6 damage at CT 13. That's every round with good rolls, every other otherwise.

Those are Fire spells. Similar spells are around for the other elements.

I think the real problem with the system is the lack of any major difference between a level 1 and a level 20 mage. The only signifigant difference is their hit points.

Both will take about the same amount of time to cast spells. And with descent Con scores the level 1 mage will be able to make the majority of their saves. While they might not be able to ccast the ultra powerful spells of a level 20 before they go under, they could get real close. Easily matching what they'll be able to cast at level 10 to 14 or so (rough guesses).

The spellcasting bonus needs to have a greater impact across the levels, and it needs to get harder to save on those higher CT spells...

arcady said:

I think the real problem with the system is the lack of any major difference between a level 1 and a level 20 mage. The only signifigant difference is their hit points.

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Uh? Have we played the same game?

OK. First, saves augment too, if slowly for those Fortitude saves which are the most important for a mage. More important, a higher-level mage knows more spells, both by-heart spells and quick reference spells. In addition, a 20th-lvl. mage, as you note, has +20 to his/her casting pool. For many spells, it means you can cast them without even rolling the d20. For the most powerful spells, it means 19 more points per round, compared to a 1st-lvl. mage, which saves more than 2 rounds of spellcasting.

That's why I think the war mage overpowered, BTW. At some point, he can add +4 to all his rolls, which is a lot if the character focuses on one elemental magic and just picks one level in each of the three others. Suddenly, he jumps from a +1 to a +5 per round in three kinds of magic!

First off, I would put forth the notion that your missing the point Arcady... The point of the SS is so that level doesn't matter as much. Therefor, the things you list are intentional, not "problems".

But second, level DOES matter a bit more than you give it credit for. Trust me. Play it a bit. It really does.

I've used Sov Stone, but in Loream and in my own world. I enjoy it quite a bit, myself.