TSR Q&A with Gary Gygax

Bregh · Jan 26, 2004

Hey, Gary

!

I come bearing a question re: the mechanics and cosmology of the planes in OAD&D, specifically with regard to how the manner in which they've been treated by divers designers in numerous products.

Initially (earliest appearances in The Dragon, the PHB, Kuntz and Ward's Deities and Demigods) there's little mechanical information--some notes on the multi-planar existence of demons, undead, powerful swords, et al, and some light flavour references and text (the cover of the first printing DMG, with the City of Brass over a burning sea of lava, a few references in MMII to what certain layers of the Abyss look like, and so on). As time marches on we have modules like Q1 ('Demon Web Pits) and Roger Moore's articles on the Astral Plane in Dragon were we get a slew of detailed mechanics, and some interesting flavour developments (Int and Wis acting as Str and Dex). By the time of the Manual of the Planes we have some very specific and detailed information on how exactly things work in the planes, and what, in particular, they "look" like. Places like the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Elemental Fire, particularly, are described in quite a different manner than what we got initially.

My question is this, was this eventual development of the planes, mechanically and descriptively, in concert with what you envisioned (in terms of play and setting), or is it the end result of several smiths distilling a brew, which, while palatable and enjoyed by many, is ultimately not what "your recipe" called for?

(I believe I know your answer to this, likely from some other board in time and space, but I ask it again in order to have clarification for several here who seem interested. Also, I've tried to avoid "leading" you one way or another.

)

As always, your time and answers are most appreciated.

--B

mattcolville · Jan 26, 2004

Gary-

Hello! First, on behalf of myself and everyone in my game group, I want to thank for you your inestimable contribution to the creation of the hobby we all love. I sometimes like to think we're playing the game...even this new version...the way you did/would now. I genuinely feel, perhaps delusionally, that the spirit of the games you played is transmitted via tradition and convention play and rulebooks and articles over the years to us.

My only question for the moment involves the classes in 1st ed. AD&D and their inspiration. In many discussions about design, I've referenced those classes and said "If there had never been Aragorn, there would be no Ranger." Ditto the Thief with the Grey Mouser. It's presumptuous of me to say such a thing, especially considering you're right here and I can just ask you.

To what extent were the original classes inspired by/modeled on specific characters?

Ok, I lied, I have another question.

To what extent, if any, would you say politics and war played a role in your games? My first experiences with D&D were in a Greyhawk game modeled closely after Glen Cook's Black Company series and I've always felt A: that Greyhawk was very much a realm in which political realities could play a part and B: it fit well with the tone of the Black Company books, of which I do not know if you are aware.

After 20 years of no good mass combat/realm management solution for D&D apart from things we kitbashed together, I participated in the core design of such a product, recently released for 3.0/3.5. Did you have a need for such a thing and, if so, how did you resolve such issues? Your characters obviously became powerful and influential, some were landed nobles, yes? How did they rule their realms?

Thanks for your generosity in these threads.

Col_Pladoh · Jan 26, 2004

Bregh said:
Hey, Gary !

I come bearing a question re: the mechanics and cosmology of the planes in OAD&D, specifically with regard to how the manner in which they've been treated by divers designers in numerous products.

[snippage]

My question is this, was this eventual development of the planes, mechanically and descriptively, in concert with what you envisioned (in terms of play and setting), or is it the end result of several smiths distilling a brew, which, while palatable and enjoyed by many, is ultimately not what "your recipe" called for?

(I believe I know your answer to this, likely from some other board in time and space, but I ask it again in order to have clarification for several here who seem interested. Also, I've tried to avoid "leading" you one way or another. )

As always, your time and answers are most appreciated.

--B

If you assumed that the majority of the resulting planar material was not what I envisaged, you are on the money. Treating the many planes named in the DMG would be a long and demanding task, and it is one I never got to. About the closest to an extensive treatment of any one of them other than the PMP is what I wrote about the Abyss in the Gord yarns.

Skip Williams and I put together extensive notes for a treatment of the Plane of Shadow, but that never got past the preliminary stage because of my separation from TSR at the end of 1985.

That's about all I can say, other that I do hope to include a generic treatment of the cosmos in the Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds reference book series, but I hope to advise only, not author it, as right now I have overtwo years of work on other projects that needs be done

Cheers,
Gary

Col_Pladoh · Jan 26, 2004

mattcolville said:
Gary-

Hello! First, on behalf of myself and everyone in my game group, I want to thank for you your inestimable contribution to the creation of the hobby we all love. I sometimes like to think we're playing the game...even this new version...the way you did/would now. I genuinely feel, perhaps delusionally, that the spirit of the games you played is transmitted via tradition and convention play and rulebooks and articles over the years to us.

Howdy Matt,

Welcome, and rest assured I've enjoyed myself a great deal in the process.

My only question for the moment involves the classes in 1st ed. AD&D and their inspiration. In many discussions about design, I've referenced those classes and said "If there had never been Aragorn, there would be no Ranger." Ditto the Thief with the Grey Mouser. It's presumptuous of me to say such a thing, especially considering you're right here and I can just ask you. To what extent were the original classes inspired by/modeled on specific characters?

The Ranger class was originally devised by Joe Fischer, then a regular in my D&D game group. I published his initial treatment of the class in The Strategic Review, thereafter revised it and included it in the core game rules. Of course it is apparent that Joe based the class on JRRT's work and Aragorn. Likely a forester of some sort would have been created at some point, but it would have been quite different from the Ranger as it appeared. certainly.

The Thief was based on Jack of Shadows (Zelazny) and Cugel (Vance) with a touch of REH's Conan, rather than solely on the Gray Mouser. Mouser was too good a swordsman to serve as the pure model.

What was done was tobuild game characters based on broad archetypes, and where there were strong fictitional characters of the archtypical sort, use them as central models.

Ok, I lied, I have another question.

To what extent, if any, would you say politics and war played a role in your games? My first experiences with D&D were in a Greyhawk game modeled closely after Glen Cook's Black Company series and I've always felt A: that Greyhawk was very much a realm in which political realities could play a part and B: it fit well with the tone of the Black Company books, of which I do not know if you are aware.

After 20 years of no good mass combat/realm management solution for D&D apart from things we kitbashed together, I participated in the core design of such a product, recently released for 3.0/3.5. Did you have a need for such a thing and, if so, how did you resolve such issues? Your characters obviously became powerful and influential, some were landed nobles, yes? How did they rule their realms?

Thanks for your generosity in these threads.

In general the player group in my campaign were not much interested in politics and warfare. When I played, my PCs I was always meddling in politics and had a large army, so some warfare was played out with Rob as the DM. The lands rules by my PCs, that is Mordenkainen and his followers, were gained by his formation of a raiding force, that being developed into a standing army. It was supported initially by raiding and pillaging opponents, then by the resources of the territory gained by military action. As it was mainly against aggressive humanoid forces and nomadic raiders, the settled states around his holdings were happy to support and trade with the newly formed political entity.

Greyhawk was set up to enable both political play and large-scale warfare; and I agree that Glen Cook's "Black Company" is a good reference for including such considerations in a campaign. I made a stab at mass combat with Swords & Spells, but I believe its system was too abstract for most D&Ders who were not inculcated in large-scale military miniatures play.

As I don't play new D&D I can't comment on the current efforts to provide rules for such warfare.

Cheers,
Gary

Mirth · Jan 26, 2004

Col_Pladoh said:
Skip Williams and I put together extensive notes for a treatment of the Plane of Shadow, but that never got past the preliminary stage because of my separation from TSR at the end of 1985.

I for one would LOVE to see this, Gary. Any possibility of contacting Skip and tweaking this enough to release under d20 or OGL? (That assumes that the material is still around and both of you are even interested, of course

)

Jay

Col_Pladoh · Jan 26, 2004

Mirth said:
I for one would LOVE to see this, Gary. Any possibility of contacting Skip and tweaking this enough to release under d20 or OGL? (That assumes that the material is still around and both of you are even interested, of course )

Jay

Well, Jay...

The notes are still in a file somewhere in the basement here, anbd they can be found, wife Gail assures me. However, in regards to Skip, he seems uninclined to go forward. I proposed we do that back around 1996, and at that time he declined. Since then I've heard nothing from him. Of course I could go ahead and develop the material on my own, but there is a co-mingling of ideas, so Skip would have a half interest in it. As I have plenty of other work, I'm not about to do all the design and share payments with him without his equal input

Cheers,
Gary

mistere29 · Jan 26, 2004

A while ago, you tried to convince wizards to release the OAD&D material alondside the new stuff. Kind of like a collectors edition. Since wizards had new managment now, did you ever try to pitch the idea again.

Col_Pladoh · Jan 26, 2004

mistere29 said:
A while ago, you tried to convince wizards to release the OAD&D material alondside the new stuff. Kind of like a collectors edition. Since wizards had new managment now, did you ever try to pitch the idea again.

Wizards has licensed out the OAD&D system to Kenzer, so they won't be publishing anything using it. Even if they did, though, the same problem of co-mingling of ideas exists.

If Skip were to contact me now and say he wanted to go forward, my writing schedule is filled for the next two or so years.

Cheers,
Gary

Piratecat · Jan 26, 2004

Interesting. Not to go off on a tangent, but to what extent do you find that rules drive an adventure design? I'm curious what sort of challenges you're facing as you match up creative thinking with mandated rules.

Gray Mouser · Jan 26, 2004

Greyhawk PC Wizards

Gary,

I know that Bigby the Mage started out as an apprentice to Mordenkainen (after, I have heard, being captured by Mordy!). I was wondering, were there ever any other PC mages that had dealing either with their former masters or who acquired any apprentices of their own and did these interactions ever have repercussions in your campaign? I'd be interested to know if Tenser, Otto or Drawmij (aka Bombadil) ever undertook any quests for their former mentors, or sent their apprentices on any such quests.

Thanks! (And I cannot wait for Zagyg's Castle, btw!),

Gray Mouser

(Frustrated Mage but adept thief and swordsman

TSR Q&A with Gary Gygax

Bregh

Explorer

mattcolville

Adventurer

Col_Pladoh

Gary Gygax

Col_Pladoh

Gary Gygax

Mirth

Explorer

Col_Pladoh

Gary Gygax

mistere29

First Post

Col_Pladoh

Gary Gygax

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian

Gray Mouser

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