Help with half-orc Champion of Gwynharwyf build inspired by Daelon in NWN

Gaiden

Explorer
I only just got NWN GE and recently acquired Daelon (the half-orc barbarian that screams about the red tiger and what not). I really like the idea of a noble barbarian following the tacits of honor (at least that is what I have taken from the limited aspect of his personality in the game).

I was trying to make a tabletop version of him (rather than just copying him outright from the game) and I thought he very much fit the role of a CoG.

I am mainly interested in class choice involving at least a majority of the CoG levels and feat selection for such a character. I look forward to your suggestions.

Oh, and the last thing is that in the game he wields a orc double axe. I wanted to include that in the build but am not sure if it is optimal - again feedback appreciated.
 

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ruleslawyer

Registered User
Just take the whole PrC. CoG is absurdly good; good enough that I might not even allow it IMC. (James Wyatt has a tendency to write these sorts of classes; look at the singh rager, kishi charger, and daidoji bodyguard!)

The orc double axe is NOT an optimal weapon choice; if half-orcs had Weapon Familiarity with it, it might be vaguely worth considering, but barbarians just don't get the feats to burn on exotic two-weapon fighting, and they shouldn't really waste the Dexterity on it either.

A good choice, if your DM allows Righteous Wrath to work with frenzy, is to take a level or two of Frenzied Berserker with this build. The moment you're not worried about attacking party members while under the influence of frenzy, one of the major weaknesses of the FB goes away.
 

Gaiden

Explorer
ruleslawyer said:
Just take the whole PrC. CoG is absurdly good; good enough that I might not even allow it IMC. (James Wyatt has a tendency to write these sorts of classes; look at the singh rager, kishi charger, and daidoji bodyguard!)

The orc double axe is NOT an optimal weapon choice; if half-orcs had Weapon Familiarity with it, it might be vaguely worth considering, but barbarians just don't get the feats to burn on exotic two-weapon fighting, and they shouldn't really waste the Dexterity on it either.

A good choice, if your DM allows Righteous Wrath to work with frenzy, is to take a level or two of Frenzied Berserker with this build. The moment you're not worried about attacking party members while under the influence of frenzy, one of the major weaknesses of the FB goes away.

I would never allow Righteous Wrath to work with frenzy (btw, I am the DM). Rage in my opinion never actually prevents the character from knowing friend from foe (only frenzy does that), so that portion of the feat is not too important to me. Rather, it is more the descriptive terms of being able to think perfectly coherently during the rage. Frenzy on the other hand is completely opposed to this. Moreover, the balance of the power of frenzy comes from not knowing friend from foe.

However, all of this is a moot argument because I am going for modeling the character's personality. Before I looked at BoED, I was thinking just barbarian fighter combo of some type. I wanted Daelan (not Daelon - I checked last night), to be, again, the noble savage - a good/pure/righteous warrior interested in restoring honor to his name and his family. I was thinking of a few builds:

Barb 2/Fighter 4/CoG 10/Vassal of Bahamut 2/Warrior of Righteousness 2
This build has the disadvanatage of taking Vow of Obediance which is completely useless considering the CoG ability rendering him immune to compulsion effects. However, the +8 armor granting a +4 max dex and couting as light armor is really awesome for a barbarian - he can wear it first off and still keep his max speed. Also, I was thinking that by the time he would reach it (18th level), it would be a cool story arch to have him be noticed by Bahamut and be chosen to represent good dragons. BTW, don't worry about the dex issue - I rolled up this guys stats already and got ridiculously good scores (I may even simply reduce some of them, they are so good - that is a big thing, since normally I never touch dice rolls).

I was also thinking about including some levels of Annointed Warrior with CoG. The annointed warrior really seemed on key for the character type I was going for.

For feats I was thinking:

Power Attack
Headlong Rush
Knight of the Stars
Righteous Wrath
Greater Resiliency/Roll With It (toughness)/Thick Skinned

TWF, ITWF, GTWF if I go with the Orc Double Axe

Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization (if I go with the double axe)
Improved Critical
Power Critical (the original version in MotW)

I like resounding blow and the exalted feat that has it as a prereq (IDHMBWM) but with the limited threat range of axes I was thinking they were not optimal choices. I was also contemplating the D, M, SA chain as well as dash and the feat that lets you take a 90 degree turn while charging - this could be used to great effect with headlong rush. Speaking of headlong rush, is there anyway to prevent the AoO. As the DM I would be inclined to say, even with SA, charging would still provoke an AoO when using headlong rush. However, mobility seems to have nice synergy with the feat.

Again, thoughts, as always, appreciated.

I have a houserule that gives half-orcs weapon familiarity with orc double axes for the exact reason you bring up (it still may not be as optimal a choice by comparison to a greataxe). So presuming the orc gets the double weapon proficiency for free, what say you?
 

Just FYI, there's no exalted feat pre-req for Resounding Blow, just Str 13+, Power Attack, and Intimidate 7 ranks. And, in 3.5, Intimidate by itself is no longer useless in combat.
 

ruleslawyer

Registered User
Gaiden said:
I would never allow Righteous Wrath to work with frenzy (btw, I am the DM). Rage in my opinion never actually prevents the character from knowing friend from foe (only frenzy does that), so that portion of the feat is not too important to me. Rather, it is more the descriptive terms of being able to think perfectly coherently during the rage. Frenzy on the other hand is completely opposed to this. Moreover, the balance of the power of frenzy comes from not knowing friend from foe.
Yeah. This is one of those rare places in which flavor text actually suggests a more abusive interpretation than the letter of the rules states. While it makes some sense for an FB with Righteous Wrath NOT to turn upon his friends, it would be extremely abusive, balance-wise.
BTW, don't worry about the dex issue - I rolled up this guys stats already and got ridiculously good scores (I may even simply reduce some of them, they are so good - that is a big thing, since normally I never touch dice rolls).
Sweet!

For feats I was thinking:

Power Attack
Headlong Rush
Knight of the Stars
Righteous Wrath
Greater Resiliency/Roll With It (toughness)/Thick Skinned

TWF, ITWF, GTWF if I go with the Orc Double Axe

Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization (if I go with the double axe)
Improved Critical
Power Critical (the original version in MotW)

Doesn't he only get 10 feats, though (3 fighter + 7 character level)?
I have a houserule that gives half-orcs weapon familiarity with orc double axes for the exact reason you bring up (it still may not be as optimal a choice by comparison to a greataxe). So presuming the orc gets the double weapon proficiency for free, what say you?
Still don't think so. Barbs are best moving around and whacking away, not being stationary blenders. Orc double axe sounds cool, but TWF just is. not. worth. it. Not from a min-max perspective, anyway. I'd go with the D/M/SA chain if I were you, and maybe throw in a charge feat and/or heavy combat style (Combat Brute from CW is a nice touch). Barbs are meant to be damage dealers, with lots of it.
 

Gaiden

Explorer
Doesn't he only get 10 feats, though (3 fighter + 7 character level)?

According to the build I suggested he would get 7 level feats, 3 fighter, and 2 exalted. I was more posting feats that I was milling over as possibilities. I want to make the character well but not necessarily completely midmaxed. For example I would really like to include a regional feat from the Sword Coast to somehow locate him to that region. I was thinking that the headlong rush and/or orc double axe would be good flavor relavent to his orc heritage. However, he was raised by his human mother (hence the importance of some sort of region feat). Moreover, he will have lived in a civilized area for a while - that is why I wanted a few fighter levels as well as barbarian.
 


ruleslawyer

Registered User
Gaiden said:
According to the build I suggested he would get 7 level feats, 3 fighter, and 2 exalted.
Ah, yes...
/Warrior of Righteousness 2
Urk! So yes, 7 regular, 3 fighter, 2 exalted.
I was more posting feats that I was milling over as possibilities. I want to make the character well but not necessarily completely midmaxed. For example I would really like to include a regional feat from the Sword Coast to somehow locate him to that region. I was thinking that the headlong rush and/or orc double axe would be good flavor relavent to his orc heritage. However, he was raised by his human mother (hence the importance of some sort of region feat). Moreover, he will have lived in a civilized area for a while - that is why I wanted a few fighter levels as well as barbarian.
Well, IMHO, barbarians can take levels of fighter even if their training isn't "civilized," but that's just my opinion. I'd suggest the Thug feat (the name may not be appropriate, but the "quick to take action" part certainly seems so) as a regional feat if you like. I love the orc double axe for flavor, so why not go with it? I was just trying to get a feel as to whether you want the min-maxed option or something easier.
 

Gaiden

Explorer
ruleslawyer said:
Ah, yes...

Urk! So yes, 7 regular, 3 fighter, 2 exalted.

Well, IMHO, barbarians can take levels of fighter even if their training isn't "civilized," but that's just my opinion. I'd suggest the Thug feat (the name may not be appropriate, but the "quick to take action" part certainly seems so) as a regional feat if you like. I love the orc double axe for flavor, so why not go with it? I was just trying to get a feel as to whether you want the min-maxed option or something easier.

I see fighter levels as more of a disciplined style of training and barbarian as more of an undisciplined as a gross contrast between the two. Perhaps I was too loose with my first explanation.

I looked over the Thug feat and actually think it would be very appropriate for the character in terms of ability - you are right that it was the name that turned me off to it though.

My goal is to create an optimal character using feats/classes/abilities that also carry high flavor but not to the extent that optimal would be an oxymoron. Let me put conditions on it so everyone knows what I am trying to work with.

Has to have level(s) in barbarian.
Has to have level(s) in fighter.
Has to have level(s) in Champion of Gwynharwyf

Has to have a regional feat from the Sword Coast area - I think Thug is the way to go (and I will just rename it to something more appropriate to Daelan's personality).

Has to have something orc related - either orc double axe, headlong rush, or both.

Has to have the feats:

Power Attack (I just want him to have it :))
Righteous Wrath (PrC prereq)
Knight of the Stars (PrC prereq)

The above is the crux of the build and anything added would have to be supplemental and not completely change the character type. So for example, to use the example of a frenzied berserker - that would completely alter the character type (no matter how many levels were taken), where as a few levels of Annointed Warrior for example would not.

Thoughts?
 

My copies of Book of Exalted Deeds and FRCS are at home, but I'll try to take a look at this tomorrow (Saturday).

When I'm pre-planning characters for a particular PrC, I find it easiest to work backwards from the first level of PrC. Fill in feats and skills as you go. Some feats will also require skills ranks, such as Resounding Blow (7 ranks Intimidate).

The optimal number of "splash" fighter levels to take are 1 (bonus feat), 2 (bonus feat), or 4 (bonus feat = Weapon Specialization).

Barbarians get abilities at every level, so you have to decide where you want to leave off. However, I would probably stop at Bbn 4 (rage 2/day) or Bbn 5 (improved uncanny dodge - can't be flanked) OR go to Bbn 7 (DR 3/-) or Bbn 8 (rage 3/day). The 6th barbarian level (trap sense +2) is suboptimal for this build.

I disagree with others who have said that you shouldn't take Two Weapon Fighting. It's very flavorful and it's one of the things that makes the Daelan character special. Don't forget that as you will be raging for major combats, you don't have to put your best stats into Str/Con. You can put a high stat into Dex and rely on rage to pump up Str/Con when necessary.

More tomorrow...
 

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