Thieves' World/Lankhmar - why do you like them?

Unseelie · Jan 23, 2004

Gez said:
D&D was influenced by Leiber, not the other way around.

The Grey Mouser is the only reason rogues (and before them, thieves), could use magic devices. I also suspect he's the origin of the way humans multiclassed in AD&D. And a lot of adventures follow the format laid in their tales -- short, usually unrelated, adventures.

D&D was not only copied on Tolkien -- it was also copied on Anderson, Moorcock, Leiber, and Vance.

Heck, that list could easily get a lot longer but if we're doing the short list I'd include Howard as well.

Melan · Jan 23, 2004

Gez said:
The Grey Mouser is the only reason rogues (and before them, thieves), could use magic devices. I also suspect he's the origin of the way humans multiclassed in AD&D. And a lot of adventures follow the format laid in their tales -- short, usually unrelated, adventures.

Cugel the Clever also used magic items and scrolls, and botched his roll on Imprisonment. On the other hand, I think you are spot on wrt the second part.

Nightfall · Jan 25, 2004

My introduction to them came from D&D (Legends and Lore) and the first book (Ill met In Lankmar.)

Col_Pladoh · Jan 25, 2004

Gez said:
D&D was influenced by Leiber, not the other way around.

The Grey Mouser is the only reason rogues (and before them, thieves), could use magic devices. I also suspect he's the origin of the way humans multiclassed in AD&D. And a lot of adventures follow the format laid in their tales -- short, usually unrelated, adventures.

D&D was not only copied on Tolkien -- it was also copied on Anderson, Moorcock, Leiber, and Vance.

Not quite...

First, D&D was not copied from any of the sources you mention. Those are all fiction, and D&D is a game. Nothing in that game was copied from any source, but many, many sources of inspiration were intrinsic to it's formulation, including mythology, folklore, lejend, fairy tales, and much authored fiction.

As for Fritz's work, there was some influence on the thief class, but Zelazny's Jack of Shadows, as well as Thief of Llarn (Gardner Fox?, can't remember the author...) were more influential, REH, a major inspiration, had Conan doing a good bit of thievery, and the most influential of all was Vance with his marvelous thief, Cugel.

That's the fact of the matter

Gary

Col_Pladoh · Jan 25, 2004

Seule said:
My understanding is that Mr. Lieber actually ran D&D at some point, which is why the Lankhmar gods are in the original Deitied and Demigods. I do not actually know for sure, however.

--Seule

I hate to disabuse you, amigo, but Fritz didn't roleplay. In fact, he wasn't much for games of any sort. Getting information from him for the Lankhmar boardgame was quite a chore, as he thought in terms of plots and storylines, not game settings and rules. By the end of the second week of his stay at my house, though, he had come to understand what was needed for games, and then the information flowed much better.

Cheers,
Gary

Col_Pladoh · Jan 25, 2004

Dismas said:
If gaming Urban Legends are to be believed (maybe EGG can confirm/deny) Leiber was a friend of Gygax and allegedly help write some bits under an assumed name.

Heh,

To be brutally honest, I was a fanboy who got to become a friend of Fritz's. After I wrote fan letters to him, invited him to be the GoH at GenCon, Fritz and I became friends. He stayed at my place for some time, and darned if he wasn't sort of sweet on my wife, now my ex-wife, called her "The Pirate Queen." Later on he sent her a statuette of a pirate queen that did resemble her a good deal at the time, and she treasured it. Fritz was a charming fellow

Anyway, Fritz didn't do any RPGing, so it is indeed legend in regards to his doing any D&D material. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I had to help him with the rules for the Lankhmar boardgame. His best pal, Harry Fischer (The Gray Mouser) was more game-oriented, and his input into that design was substantial--which pleased Fritz a greatly.

Just as a FYI, when we had Fritz at the CenCon X GoH, we also brought Harry in as a guest also, so that the two could be reuninted after many years apart, so both Fafhrd and Gray mouser were at the event! Harry was in his late 60's, a small fellow who had been a ballet dancer, still in great shape, full of piss & vinegar too, as is said. He came into Lake Geneva wearing a white Panama hat with a red hatband, a red and white checked sports coat, and white Bermuda shorts. Raised hell in shops, and the parties in his room were heroic. Harry had many party favors he brought along, and everyone who could manage it came to his suite in the Playboy Club to get in on the fun. Even Fritz, who was then a tee-totaller was there marvelling at Harry's energy and capacity for recreational substances.

Cheers,
Gary

Seule · Jan 25, 2004

You find out the coolest things here. Thanks, Col_Pladoh!

--Seule

Col_Pladoh · Jan 25, 2004

Seule said:
You find out the coolest things here. Thanks, Col_Pladoh!

--Seule

Heh, Seule...

Welcome, and that's pretty much what I used to say to myself after sitting around and listening to my grandparents and great aunts and uncles talk around the table after dinner. All sorts of information and lore to be learned, and I am pleased to be able to pass along what might fall into that category

Cheers,
Gary