Thieves' World/Lankhmar - why do you like them?

Col_Pladoh

Gary Gygax
Nightfall said:
(Btw Gary, I saw Anthology of Interest Part 1. Great stuff! :) )

Hey Nightfall,

Help me out here! What is Anthology of Interest?

Excuse me, but I have a lot of work, and if I should know about it, blame a mind full of creative ideas for crowding the information into some forgotten corner of my brain :eek:

Cheers,
Gary
 

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jester47

First Post
The Col rocked once and lo- he rocks again!

Thanks for the info Gary!

Incidently, from knowing Fritz, you are now in the 6 degrees of HP Lovecraft game. That is, take any scifi author and you can trace them back through the people that they knew to Lovecraft...

Gary Gygax -> Fritz Leiber -> H.P. Lovecraft -> Bob Howard

Aaron.
 

Col_Pladoh

Gary Gygax
jester47 said:
The Col rocked once and lo- he rocks again!

Thanks for the info Gary!

Incidently, from knowing Fritz, you are now in the 6 degrees of HP Lovecraft game. That is, take any scifi author and you can trace them back through the people that they knew to Lovecraft...

Gary Gygax -> Fritz Leiber -> H.P. Lovecraft -> Bob Howard

Aaron.

Does the six degrees get any less if I add that I knew Robert Bloch too? What a great guy Bob Bloch was! Had such a good time drinking cognac with him and listening to his humorous tales. To show you how stalwart a chap he wasm Bob hardly flinched when I told him i became a fan of his writing at age 12 after reading The Miracle of Ronald Weems :D

Cheers,
Gary
 

WayneLigon

Adventurer
Mark Plemmons said:
I didn't dislike them, I just didn't "dig" them. I'm sure it's just a matter of personal taste, but I'm curious to hear other peoples thoughts on what the "essential elements" are of either.
Leiber's stuff is just fine for the amazing, evocative writing and characterization he brings to Fahfrd and the Mouser. The adventures are different, and twisty, and never really come out like one might predict (today, you might be able to predict them; that's because you've seen derivative works and have now worked your way back to the source of them).

Thieves World .. is a different animal. Coming at a time when grim and gritty fantasy was almost non-existant, they created and revived interest in a style of fantastic sword and sorcery adventure where the heroes were not 'heroes' at all, but maybe people just trying to 'get by' any way they could, or were heroes by circumstance. Or by the simple reason of being in the right place at the wrong time. Some characters were completely evil, like One-Thumb, while some were just grey. It was well-received because of the difference, and because of the nature of the books. It spawned a number of other shared-world series, which now seems to have run its course, and a subgenre of fantasy that has not.

That's the appeal to me.
 

Nightfall

Sage of the Scarred Lands
Col_Pladoh said:
Hey Nightfall,

Help me out here! What is Anthology of Interest?

Excuse me, but I have a lot of work, and if I should know about it, blame a mind full of creative ideas for crowding the information into some forgotten corner of my brain :eek:

Cheers,
Gary
Sokay. You remember Futurama...that episode.
 


diaglo

Adventurer
JoeBlank said:
Just adding another word of thanks to Mr. Gygax. It is wonderful to get the straight dope on this sort of thing.


it is the only way really. due to the fact that gamers have such huge imaginations and can make mountains out of molehills. part of the draw for guys with big imaginations is to spin/change the stories to make them more to their liking. which oft times will be far from the truth as a whole. but not the truth as the spindoctor sees.
 

PatEllis15

First Post
Hmmm

I've run some Lankhmar, but I haven't actually read the books. For me what Made Lankhmar so great was that the City Design done up by TSR was GOOD, it was SOLID! If I recall correctly, it was the first city detailed to any degree. Each part of the city with its own entry, the geomorphs that allowed you to make the city yours! I've often ported Lankhmar to other locations in Greyhawk. As I recall Lisa Stevens of WotC (she who helped the Greyhawk revival in 1998) had ported either Sanctuary or Lankhmar into Greyhawk for her version of Dyvers...

I can speak more to Thieves world though. I've never roleplayed there much (though I do own the RPG), but I've read all the novels, and many of the Spin offs.

What I liked about Thieves World was that the City of Santuary became one of the characters. You can see this in the first book when Myrtis, and NPC by every definition, helps mold the New Captain of the Guard, Zalbar, to insure that the Red Light district stays in business, and that Zalbar in fact will protect them.

I'm a fan of Greyhawk, so many of these next items have a clear link with ow I view Greyhawk as well...

The Characters, while heroic, or not invincible. Even Tempus, who has regeneration to the nth degree granted to him by the gods, gets taken out. Lythande, the Wizard is nearly brought to bay, and in fact leaves for agreat deal of time to protect "himself". Zalbar is nearly killed by street urchins before the crime lord Jubal rescues him. Jubal himself is then nearly killed, and when reborn is but a shell of his former self.

The Rankan's can do nothing to stop the beysib invasion, nor can the beysib/rankan rulers get rid of Zip and the PFLS.

Because each character had its own author, each gets deserving levels of detail. I just loved One Thumb, and was sorry to see that the author made the assumption that the one off book would not be duplicated, and didn't give himself much room to keep the character going.

Also, the races are WELL detailed, the Issili vs the Rankan + the Beysib and the Nisibisi are different cultures, and written that way (Much like the Oeridian, Suel and Flan of greyhawk). No need to a multitude of different races (elf, dwarf et al) because of the diversity of Humans.

As for an RPG, interacting with MORTAL NPC's fromthe books is possible, because it is clear that those NPC's can be challenged.

That said, Wizards and Cleric's in Thieves world are RARE. I'd say that you assume that wizards and Clerics advance a 1/2 rate, or that they don't get spells until 4th or 5th level (just cantrips.) to balance that out. Magic items exist, but obviously they are much more rare, because those high level spellcasters are that much more rare.

Pat E
 

Crothian

First Post
PatEllis15 said:
Zalbar is nearly killed by street urchins before the crime lord Jubal rescues him.

Just pointing out, you have that backwards. Jubal is the one set up by the street urchiuns and nearly killed and the Hellhound Zalbar rescues him.
 

mmadsen

First Post
The Wizards of the Coast site has a Book section with numerous Classics of Fantasy articles, including Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser Series. An excerpt:
Long before Moorcock, however, another author had found a way to combine Howard's gusto with a more literate sensibility: Fritz Leiber. Even before Howard's death, Leiber and his friend Harry Fischer had in 1934 created the characters of Fafhrd, a clever barbarian, and the Gray Mouser, a consummate thief -- both expert swordsmen, both adventurers extraordinaire, and both relying in more or less equal parts on their skill at swordplay, their brains, and their luck, but above all, on their partner. The two young authors even in 1936 submitted a story apiece (Leiber's "Adept's Gambit" and Fischer's "Quarmall") to H. P. Lovecraft, famous as an encourager of young artists, who thought Fischer had more imagination but judged Leiber the better writer. Fischer soon abandoned writing to become a salesman of corrugated cardboard boxes (any job being precious in the Depression),[1] but despite rejection notices from Weird Tales Leiber pressed on, honing his style and developing a whole world (Newhon, an anagram from "No when") as a backdrop for the pair's adventures. With the advent of John W. Campbell's Unknown,[2] Leiber finally found the perfect venue for his tales: an audience that craved adventure but demanded witty dialogue and plot twists, above all insisting that the stories obey their own internal logic. The five stories that appeared there are still among the best in the entire series (and, by extension, the entire sword and sorcery genre): "Two Sought Adventure" (later renamed "The Jewels in the Forest"), "The Bleak Shores", "The Howling Tower", "The Sunken Land" (which contains the inspiration for D&D's cloakers), and "Thieves' House" (from whence all subsequent Thieves Guilds derive).
 

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