PC's can't take a hint

Gobbo · Jan 26, 2004

I am having a problem with my group.

I am running a 3.5 campaign set in the Forgotten Realms using the Vault of Larin Karr. It's a great module but I think its a bit too open ended for these players. Two of the players are fairly new, they have been playing for about two months, another player has been playing for about a year and the last player is a good friend of mine and has been playing for 15+ years. The party is currently 7th level with a good mix of classes.

Last night they made an excursion from the campaign by scouting the mountains to the north of the valley where they heard rumors of hobgoblins. This is something I wanted to put on the back burner for the furture but the newer players insisted on checking it out. They came across a keep set into a mountain. They saw a group of 60 hobgoblins leave the keep. They then started planning an attack on the keep without considering the possibility that they may be out matched. No one thought to scout ahead and see how many hobgoblins are in the keep (which is about 500 hardened warriors). I decided to give the a bigger hint by having a pair of Frost Giants walk by their position leading slaves to be sold. At that point, one of the players thought it would great to attack the giants. Fortunatly, they didnt, they are not ready for that fight.

The big problem is that by running an open ended campaign, the PC dont have a clue when they are outmatched. I have told them previously that somethings that they encounter may be too powerfull for them. This happed after they encountered 2 wraiths at 4th level. It was a tough fight but they won.

I am afraid that eventually they are going to bite of more than they can chew and that will be the end of the campaign. They veteren player of the group is getting tired of the indecision, poor tactics and foolhardyness of the other players. He currently going along with the others because he's sick of his ideas being shot down all the time.

Sorry about the long post but I need some advice.

Thanks

Old Fezziwig · Jan 26, 2004

Gobbo said:
The big problem is that by running an open ended campaign, the PC dont have a clue when they are outmatched. I have told them previously that somethings that they encounter may be too powerfull for them. This happed after they encountered 2 wraiths at 4th level. It was a tough fight but they won.

I am afraid that eventually they are going to bite of more than they can chew and that will be the end of the campaign. They veteren player of the group is getting tired of the indecision, poor tactics and foolhardyness of the other players. He currently going along with the others because he's sick of his ideas being shot down all the time.

Maybe this a little hardline, but I'd say let them do what they want to do. If they ignore the hints, let them see why their plans are bad or the situation's too tough. Have the hobgoblins slap their players around a bit, rough them up, knock them out, whatever, but make sure that they have a few opportunities to escape before you kill anyone. One would hope that when they see how bad things are going to be, they'd get the point. Maybe the veteran player can then step in afterwards and say "Hey, we need to be more careful or we're really going to get it next time." They might listen if the danger seems real--to some degree, surviving a tough fight and totally getting pasted by it are completely different. I know my group doesn't say, "We should have run" after they survive a tough encounter, they usually say, "Well, that was close...anyone got any healing?" YMMV.

Best,
Nick

Teflon Billy · Jan 26, 2004

I'm not sure you are going to like my advice Gobbo, but the example you give is pretty much the way my players have played since time immemorial

My solution has always been: Go With It.

Seriously, you are running an open-ended campaign, and that's to be applauded because it's harder than a linear campaign.

Now as far as "Good News/Bad News" goes; it breaks downa little something liek this...

Good News: Once you have most of the preparation done for your campaign, you can get by on very little prep. Just know what repercussions the PC's actions have across the game world, altrer your notes accordingly and all is well.

Bad News: Players can very, very easily leave your intended "plot" by the wayside, and get themselves into a whole world of crap by wandering into trouble that thy are not capable of handling.

So...you need to learn to improvise and they need to learn that not everyting they meet is a possible "win" for them. They might have to learn it the hard way (PC Death), but that's not the end of the world in D&D, fr a variety of reasons I'm sure you know.

It sounds like your players have tasted heroism and found it to their liking (2 Wraiths at 4th level? Wow!) They are willing to take risks...risks that you honestly describe as "Out of their league" if not "insurmountable", and to be honest, that can make for pretty exciting gaming.

So they walk up to a hobgoblin fortress. Let them go in. Have the Hobgoblins swarm on them if you are feeling mena. Have the Hobgoblins be unready for them if you are feeling generaous (they just saw 60 march out, maybe that was the shift that is "on").

Just be flexible, have fun and don't be afraid to let some of them die.

that's how the game is played

Mercule · Jan 26, 2004

Well, do you think the players will survive (as a group) a TPK? If so, let it happen.

Maybe the answer is to not worry too much about a grand plot for a bit. Let them be mercs. Mercs die all the time, and the company just hires replacements. This'll give 'em a good idea of lethality.

You could also poll the group to see what sort of game they want. I'm planning on doing this before starting up my campaign again in March. If the players aren't looking for the same thing in the game that I am, I'd like to know in advance. I can always adjust my style and have fun in a different way. But, if expectations are too different from the two sides of the table, it might be a good idea to let it die. That sure beats hard feelings that come of forcing things.

Olgar Shiverstone · Jan 26, 2004

Sometimes, you have to let players' incaution get the better of them, all the way to TPK.

There are consequences for actions (or inaction) -- this is a good way for them to learn, if they've ignored the hints.

Gobbo · Jan 26, 2004

I am afraid of the TPK. I have put a lot of work into this campaign and Ive looked forward to running for quite sometime, it would be a shame to kill the campaign.

I might try having the Giants use merciful clubs (deals subdual damage) if the players attack them. This way if they lose the battle, they wake up in a cell somewhere to be sold as slaves. Could make for an intresting adventure.

I have had to cut out alot of the roleplaying 'quests' in the adventure because the group gets bored when theres nothing to fight. Its a real shame since some of the stuff is pretty good.

Evil Eli · Jan 26, 2004

Gobbo,

I hate to tell you but stop coddleing your player. Your campagain will not die if they die,

Kichwas · Jan 26, 2004

Gobbo said:
I am afraid that eventually they are going to bite of more than they can chew and that will be the end of the campaign.

Let them.

Once they experience a few TPKs, they will begin to adopt their ideas and realize this thing doesn't come with a 'save' button.

Some players will only learn by experience, so don't hand hold them - let them experience it.

Epametheus · Jan 26, 2004

If they think that L5 or whatever characters can handle frost giants, you might as well splatter them. They could use a better understanding of the game.

Just roll up new characters in your campaign world and keep going. Since you want to be merciful, allow the PCs to flee if they realize they're screwed and want to escape. The new ones can just join the surviving party.

And if somehow your L5 or so PCs take on an army of giants and hobgoblins and legitimately win, then you'll have one helluva story to tell later.

Agback · Jan 26, 2004

Gobbo said:
I am afraid that eventually they are going to bite of more than they can chew and that will be the end of the campaign.

You get that sometimes. When it happens, chalk it up to experience.

There is nothing like having lost a few characters to make players appreciate the tension of a serious encounter, and nothing like setbacks to make an eventual victory all the sweeter.

But I feel for your veteran player.

Regards,

Agback