<< PLANESCAPE >> How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?

JacktheRabbit · Feb 16, 2004

Orius said:
True enough. This started with the D&D Armageddon thread, with the idea of Sigil falling under siege. If a DM wants to that, fine. It's the DM's job to run the campaign.

Like people said, the Lady of Pain is there to maintain a certain amount of internal campaign logic. If you've got a city that has portals to pretty much anywhere in existance, then why hasn't a god, the fiends, or any other very powerful being taken it over already? That's really the purpose of the Lady, and that's why Planescape fans start "babbling" about her. If you're not playing a standard Planescape game, or any sort of D&D setting which doesn't use Sigil in it's cosmology, then do whatever you want.

Just reminds me of a phrase:

"You only say never because no one ever has."

Just because no one has ever hurt the Lady or thrown her out or outfoxed her before doesnt mean it cannot happen. It just means it has not happened YET.

Pants · Feb 16, 2004

Bendris Noulg said:
Also of note is that, from what I recall, it didn't have the setting logo on it (did it have any setting logo?). Going into the store looking for material on Planescape, there's nothing about the module that would at all grab my attention as a Planescape product. If I were buying Planescape-only, which is close to the truth at that time, I would have passed it up as "yet another" Vecna adventure. In short, it's not being marketed or packaged as a Planescape module puts it outside (but alongside and usable with) Planescape.

Considering that back then ALL of the various planes of existence were connected, it makes perfect sense. It is NOT a PlaneScape adventure, neither is it a Ravenloft adventure, but a conglomeration. Why should it have the 'Planescape seal of approval' then? If the module happened to take thr group on a short stint through the Dalelands, should it also have the 'FR seal of approval' when FR is only used briefly? I find it hard to justify ignoring canon (especially when we are having a discussion about canonical information) just because it didn't say 'Planescape' on the box.
Fact is, no matter how close Vecna got is irrevelent, the important matter is that he DID do it, thus it is possible from a 'canon' standpoint.

Orius said:
Like people said, the Lady of Pain is there to maintain a certain amount of internal campaign logic. If you've got a city that has portals to pretty much anywhere in existance, then why hasn't a god, the fiends, or any other very powerful being taken it over already? That's really the purpose of the Lady, and that's why Planescape fans start "babbling" about her. If you're not playing a standard Planescape game, or any sort of D&D setting which doesn't use Sigil in it's cosmology, then do whatever you want.

Or even if you are playing Planescape, then do whatever you want, because 'canon' is only for the masses of the internet to argue over and not necessarily for YOUR campaign.

Trickstergod · Feb 16, 2004

Orius said:
Like people said, the Lady of Pain is there to maintain a certain amount of internal campaign logic. If you've got a city that has portals to pretty much anywhere in existance, then why hasn't a god, the fiends, or any other very powerful being taken it over already? That's really the purpose of the Lady, and that's why Planescape fans start "babbling" about her. If you're not playing a standard Planescape game, or any sort of D&D setting which doesn't use Sigil in it's cosmology, then do whatever you want.

And notably, a number of folk have already offered up reasons that take into account the "Why hasn't this already happened?" factor. That some folk still choose to disregard out of hand, which is when the line between fan and fanboy is crossed.

Toras · Feb 16, 2004

Its not honestly that I am a Lady Fan boy, as I am usually the first go for the throat of Unstoppable Beings on general principal.

The Lady exists to enforce a neutral zone, on place in all the multiverse were all beings are essentially free of the massive external forces that could normally crush there will. This is good for normal planescape, necessary for lower level adventurers to even be able to interact with the setting as more than an errand boy for there respective powers.

Something that cannot be stressed enough is that MANY Millenia have passed with this situation as it is. And even with the Blood War going on, massive amounts of effort would have been put into capturing what has to be the most strategically important point in the multiverse, despite the tactial disadvantages of occupation.

With all of this effort, it would take a massive, complicated, and more importantly time-specific event to succeed where so much has failed.
Rather than trying to force a horde offensive, making some appeal to the "rules" within Sigil, or trying to seal the portals (they re open in random locations), might I suggest an alternative. (My understanding is not perfect so bare with me)

1. The Demons have been attempting to recreate Sigil down the very last detail, in the hopes it will grant them some advantage.
2. With the Blood Alliance, they now have the aid of the other fiendish races in this effort.
3. Using the combined efforts of the three Fiendish races, they are able to succeed, even filling Sigil with duplicates of its residents.

This duplicate could be used in vast amounts of sympathetic magic, perhaps aided by the power of Fiendish Lords, and huge sacrifices in terms of souls.
Perhaps it gains similar properties under fiendish control, or perhaps it provides a link to strike at her directly.

Bendris Noulg · Feb 16, 2004

Pants said:
If the module happened to take thr group on a short stint through the Dalelands, should it also have the 'FR seal of approval' when FR is only used briefly?

Yes. Ask any Dragonlance fan where Soth is, and then ask a Ravenloft fan. A "seal of approval" is the difference between someone's idea for an adventure and the actual conditions of a setting.

Want some real fun? Read the Lucas Movies vs Books debate Star Wars players have from time to time... Those get really interesting.

I find it hard to justify ignoring canon (especially when we are having a discussion about canonical information) just because it didn't say 'Planescape' on the box.

Who says it's canon? The licensed site bringing Planescape into 3E says it isn't, and ignoring non-canon is rather easy (only slightly easier than ignoring actual canon).

Fact is, no matter how close Vecna got is irrevelent, the important matter is that he DID do it, thus it is possible from a 'canon' standpoint.

Until someone with the module kicks out the answer of when Vecna gained godhood (before or after reaching Sigil), whether or not he did infact break canon is still in the air. So, no, it's not possible from a canon standpoint.

1. Not a Planescape Product.
2. Not acknowledged by the current source of official canon (and IIRC only acknowledged by the module itself).
3. Still not even sure if the events in the module broke canon or not.

Sure, you and anyone else can officialize it for your home games, but don't assume that doing so makes it canon.

And just for the anti-canon patrol: Really, I break from canon all the time, so take you petty little insults somewhere else, like the grade school play yard where it belongs. When the question is asked, "is this canon?", the answer is yes or no. When the question is, "can I change this?", the answer is always yes. The futility of this discussion is based on that fact, however: How any one person would do it can range from straight stats (beat her to a pulp like any other monster) to metaphysical (dowse her with pollen from a golden lotus that only fed on fresh winter melt plucked from a world not on any SpellJammer map and completely devoid of portals). Perhaps, if the question was "How would you make the Lady of Pain defeatable?", then the imagination fest could begin. But as the question is, "How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?", the answer is that you can't.

Consequently, if the question really is about changing the conditions (Kirk would be proud), then doesn't this actually go to House Rules?

Vargo · Feb 16, 2004

Bah, you want to get some real fun?

Let the combined forces of Darkness expel the Lady of Pain from Sigil. Let everybody think she's dead. Run your campaign.

Then it turns out that everything (including the union of the forces of Darkness) is just a plot by the Lady of Pain to clean some houses and restore a little balance, through the players. Remember, this IS the Lady of Pain we're talking about, who's been around for millenia. She doesn't think in terms of minutes, hours, decades - She thinks in terms of goals, no matter how long the goal might take to achieve.

Maybe She feels that the masses have become too complacent, rely on her too much for their safety, and ending the blood war is one way to send a Message (In Big Flaming Letters) to the rest of the cosmology that Sometimes Things Don't Work The Way They Always Have.

Or maybe the reason that nobody has ever successfully killed the Lady of Pain is that anybody who actually succeeds BECOMES the Lady of Pain - the position does not grant invulnerability, but instead imprisons the victor in a role for all eternity, until somebody can replace them - and the current Lady of Pain is trying to commit suicide...

Wee Jas · Feb 17, 2004

EricNoah said:
How can you defeat a mountain? How can you battle a ray of moonlight? How can you destroy the sky? She is bigger than a god, bigger than a universe. Run, you fool, run -- she's right behind you!

...such is Mango.

Oh c'mon that was torn from the script of Saturday Night Live!

Pants · Feb 17, 2004

Bendris Noulg said:
Yes. Ask any Dragonlance fan where Soth is, and then ask a Ravenloft fan. A "seal of approval" is the difference between someone's idea for an adventure and the actual conditions of a setting.

So, in theory, Die, Vecna Die should have the Greyhawk, Ravenloft, and PlaneScape names on it just so that it's relevent to those worlds? Seems nitpicky to me.

Want some real fun? Read the Lucas Movies vs Books debate Star Wars players have from time to time... Those get really interesting.

I haven't read the books, so no comment.

Who says it's canon?

Who says it isn't canon? Did TSR and WotC come out and say 'IGNORE THE EVENTS OF DIE VECNA DIE?' Not that I know of.

The licensed site bringing Planescape into 3E says it isn't, and ignoring non-canon is rather easy (only slightly easier than ignoring actual canon).

As it is, it's really only a big, nice informative fansite.

Until someone with the module kicks out the answer of when Vecna gained godhood (before or after reaching Sigil), whether or not he did infact break canon is still in the air.

Click to expand...

He gained godhood after breaking into Sigil. He found a loophole and exploited it. Go Vecna. Although, whether the Lady would fix the loophole is up to the DM as there is nothing that addresses this issue that has been printed.

So, no, it's not possible from a canon standpoint.

Click to expand...

Unless you gain your godhood AFTER you enter into Sigil, then yes it is. Alternatively, if you force the Lady to use her full power and Sigil is destroyed, then that is also a canonical way of achieving the same effect. Sigil = gone.

2. Not acknowledged by the current source of official canon (and IIRC only acknowledged by the module itself).

Click to expand...

That's because there were no more PS products being published at the time. The Manual of the Planes mentions nothing of the events in Die Vecna Die, it also fails to mention a lot of other details that made PS so distinctive. Does that mean that all of those little ideas and rumors in PS are not 'canon' anymore? Of course not.
And geez, for the amount of garbage that WotC gets for ignoring little pieces of canon, you'd think ignoring an entire module would result in a spontaneous combustion of the thread. But nope... doesn't happen.

3. Still not even sure if the events in the module broke canon or not.

Click to expand...

A more appropriate phrase would say that it 'bended canon.'
In Planescape, very little is known about the Lady at all. There are rumors, yes? But whenever a new product comes along and seems to offer a new insight into something, it gets thrown into 'the this isn't canon' category.

Sure, you and anyone else can officialize it for your home games, but don't assume that doing so makes it canon.

Click to expand...

If it's been printed by the parent company, it's canon.

And just for the anti-canon patrol: Really, I break from canon all the time, so take you petty little insults somewhere else, like the grade school play yard where it belongs. When the question is asked, "is this canon?", the answer is yes or no. When the question is, "can I change this?", the answer is always yes. The futility of this discussion is based on that fact, however: How any one person would do it can range from straight stats (beat her to a pulp like any other monster) to metaphysical (dowse her with pollen from a golden lotus that only fed on fresh winter melt plucked from a world not on any SpellJammer map and completely devoid of portals). Perhaps, if the question was "How would you make the Lady of Pain defeatable?", then the imagination fest could begin. But as the question is, "How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?", the answer is that you can't.

Click to expand...

Agreed. But this discussion seems to have evolved into a 'what makes canon canon?' discussion.

Bendris Noulg · Feb 17, 2004

Pants said:
So, in theory, Die, Vecna Die should have the Greyhawk, Ravenloft, and PlaneScape names on it just so that it's relevent to those worlds? Seems nitpicky to me.

Not really. Just a question of which product line it is. While you view it as all three, I view it as none of the above.

I haven't read the books, so no comment.

Neither have I, but I'm familiar with some of the authors...

Of course, that's why I haven't read them.

Who says it isn't canon? Did TSR and WotC come out and say 'IGNORE THE EVENTS OF DIE VECNA DIE?' Not that I know of.

No, but the people licensed to do the "official" 3E conversion seem to be.

As it is, it's really only a big, nice informative fansite.

That's how you wish to view it, then do so. Legally, however, they have a license that says otherwise.

He gained godhood after breaking into Sigil.

End of subject.

He found a loophole and exploited it. Go Vecna. Although, whether the Lady would fix the loophole is up to the DM as there is nothing that addresses this issue that has been printed.

Being that there are two sources making ascention within Sigil possible, I'd say the only thing that's been proven is that it is possible to ascend in Sigil.

Neither deities "born" in Sigil remained very long.

Unless you gain your godhood AFTER you enter into Sigil, then yes it is.

No, it's not. The question is: Can a god enter Sigil? Two beings ascending to godhood while in Sigil does not canonize gods entering Sigil.

It does canonize them not staying very long, though.

Alternatively, if you force the Lady to use her full power and Sigil is destroyed, then that is also a canonical way of achieving the same effect. Sigil = gone.

The question of LoP's full power is open to debate. Does she have power? Is she simply the will of the city itself? Is she a divine being that uses Sigil the way other divine beings use worshippers?

She's an enigma. An ideal. A "grand mystery".

That's because there were no more PS products being published at the time. The Manual of the Planes mentions nothing of the events in Die Vecna Die, it also fails to mention a lot of other details that made PS so distinctive. Does that mean that all of those little ideas and rumors in PS are not 'canon' anymore? Of course not.

The folks at WotC have directly stated that MotP is not Planescape. At best, it's the 1E MotP updated to 3E with some landmark PS elements.

You'll find Planescape at Planewalker.com.

And geez, for the amount of garbage that WotC gets for ignoring little pieces of canon, you'd think ignoring an entire module would result in a spontaneous combustion of the thread. But nope... doesn't happen.

I don't care what WotC ignores or doesn't ignore. Hell, I pretty much ignore their definition of D&D.

A more appropriate phrase would say that it 'bended canon.'
In Planescape, very little is known about the Lady at all. There are rumors, yes? But whenever a new product comes along and seems to offer a new insight into something, it gets thrown into 'the this isn't canon' category.

Guess why.

If it's been printed by the parent company, it's canon.

Nope. At least, if you are still trying to convince yourself that deific ascention within Sigil = deities entering sigil, it isn't.

Agreed. But this discussion seems to have evolved into a 'what makes canon canon?' discussion.

Give it another 2-3 days; The argument will likely turn to whether or not the Lady hyrbidized Razorvine herself.

PS: Someone remind me; Was Die Vecky Die one of those "apocolyptic" dungeons they did?

Shemeska · Feb 17, 2004

Bendris Noulg said:
PS: Someone remind me; Was Die Vecky Die one of those "apocolyptic" dungeons they did?

There's talk that DVD was intended to usher in the 3e cosmology since at the end of the module Vecna's actions do some severe damage to the structure of the planes and The Lady speaks with her own voice and singlehandedly reorders them.

Also, Planewalker's viewpoint on DVD doesn't reject the module outright. We're using it in part, just altering the reasons for some of the events, and specifically tossing out the attempted defining of Her Serenity at the end of the module. That only dispels the setting's main mystery and removes options for DMs.

And lest anyone think I'm too attached to canon and rules, I've broken a number of them in my own campaign already, seriously so. It's just taken me a year and a half of plotline to set it all up. I don't like to do anything halfassed or without background (even if I don't give that background immediately, it's there).