<< PLANESCAPE >> How do you defeat the Lady of Pain?
LightPhoenix
First Post
Simple - Destroy Sigil.
How? Destroy the Spire.
According to MotP, magic is impeded and limited near the Spire. At 1,200 miles, you can use any spell you wish. This is all according to the chart and text on page 147.
So... as an epic caster of no small power, stand 1,200 miles away (or less, where high-level magic is impeded - Spellcraft check of 35 needed to cast). Create an epic spell, destroy the Spire with it. Simple.
You could argue the Spire mutes magic that enters the area. No such mechanic exists in 3E, to my knowledge, though it is certainly logical.
Another alternative way is to simply use technology - it's not muted at all. epic-level fighters with explosives could eventually chip away enough of the Spire for it to topple. Plus, they'll be the best equipped to deal with pesky interlopers - according to MotP, few divine powers even work near the spire, so certainly no mortal magic would. Only a major god could stop you, and even then I'd rule their powers severly limited - as per the rules laid out in MotP.
Of course, you could just hand-wave it, since that's exactly what the Lady of Pain is - a hand-wave. A convenient plot device that "explains" why no gods are involved. It's the only thing I didn't like in Planescape.
Note, destoying the Spire would cause a major cataclysm, since it's supposedly the axis of the planes.
How? Destroy the Spire.
According to MotP, magic is impeded and limited near the Spire. At 1,200 miles, you can use any spell you wish. This is all according to the chart and text on page 147.
So... as an epic caster of no small power, stand 1,200 miles away (or less, where high-level magic is impeded - Spellcraft check of 35 needed to cast). Create an epic spell, destroy the Spire with it. Simple.
You could argue the Spire mutes magic that enters the area. No such mechanic exists in 3E, to my knowledge, though it is certainly logical.
Another alternative way is to simply use technology - it's not muted at all. epic-level fighters with explosives could eventually chip away enough of the Spire for it to topple. Plus, they'll be the best equipped to deal with pesky interlopers - according to MotP, few divine powers even work near the spire, so certainly no mortal magic would. Only a major god could stop you, and even then I'd rule their powers severly limited - as per the rules laid out in MotP.
Of course, you could just hand-wave it, since that's exactly what the Lady of Pain is - a hand-wave. A convenient plot device that "explains" why no gods are involved. It's the only thing I didn't like in Planescape.
Note, destoying the Spire would cause a major cataclysm, since it's supposedly the axis of the planes.
Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
2cp
A couple of things
1) How is worshipping the Lady going to kick her out of Sigil? It's been tried and as the "official" books above show those who dare wind up dead. It's HER RULE that doesn't allow the Powers into the city, you think she didn't think of the possiblity that sometime somewhere beings would maybe try to worship her when making the rule. That maybe she didn't include herself in the rule? What kind of Uber-powerful Nigh Unstoppable Plot Device (tm) would allow herself to be so simply thwarted through such a simple ploy? With her level of power if you're going to throw her down, then it should require something insanely powerful and well thoughtout to do her justice, not a loophole.
2)For an interesting look at the origins of the Lady and possible insight into the scope of her power and limitations, look at the novel Pages of Pain by Troy Denning, 1998 (TSR Hobbies).
A couple of things
1) How is worshipping the Lady going to kick her out of Sigil? It's been tried and as the "official" books above show those who dare wind up dead. It's HER RULE that doesn't allow the Powers into the city, you think she didn't think of the possiblity that sometime somewhere beings would maybe try to worship her when making the rule. That maybe she didn't include herself in the rule? What kind of Uber-powerful Nigh Unstoppable Plot Device (tm) would allow herself to be so simply thwarted through such a simple ploy? With her level of power if you're going to throw her down, then it should require something insanely powerful and well thoughtout to do her justice, not a loophole.
2)For an interesting look at the origins of the Lady and possible insight into the scope of her power and limitations, look at the novel Pages of Pain by Troy Denning, 1998 (TSR Hobbies).
Shemeska
Adventurer
LightPhoenix said:
Magic is simply nonexistant at the base of the spire, sucked up and drawn away into the Spire itself. Epic spell or not, it won't won't. I don't care to much speculate on how the situation might have changed just because there isn't yet an appropriate mechanic written down in 3e to handle it by the numbers.
As far as breaking the spire down by hand or tech. There's really no info on just how thick the Spire is, or how difficult to dig into it is. There's no real description of the rock that makes it up either. There's theories that the spire regenerates itself and somehow does something with the magic is funnels off from the entire multiverse. I'd compare attempting to break down the spire itself as tilting at windmills frankly.
Also if you tried to do so you'd have the entirety of the Rilmani race surrounding you and no magic to defend you. The Rilmani may or may not be able to use their own magic at the base of spire, something to do with their own ties to the essence of The Outlands. That doesn't bode well for someone trying to destroy the spire.
And oh, w/ regards to 'Pages of Pain' by Troy Denning. Nice story, interesting novel, but there's a reason why it isn't considered to be canonical to the setting. It's handling of The Lady was totally divorced from the world and the ideas of the design team. I believe Monte Cook referred to that book's explanations as 'wacky'. *chuckle* Divorce yourself from the setting before you read it, and don't try and reconcile it with anything you know of Planescape and you'll enjoy the story.
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Sejs
First Post
Just to speculate here, let's follow the ant trail:
- Sigil is rife with portals to everywhere else that is, more or less. Holes, if you will.
- To destroy the Lady, you need to destroy Sigil.
- Sigil sits at the top of the Spire.
- The Spire sits in the center of the Outlands.
- The Outlands is the center of the outer planes.
- The outer planes is a place where metafor becomes reality, and true, honest belief in something makes that thing true.
Why do I have an image of the plug being taken out of the drain of the multiverse?
- Sigil is rife with portals to everywhere else that is, more or less. Holes, if you will.
- To destroy the Lady, you need to destroy Sigil.
- Sigil sits at the top of the Spire.
- The Spire sits in the center of the Outlands.
- The Outlands is the center of the outer planes.
- The outer planes is a place where metafor becomes reality, and true, honest belief in something makes that thing true.
Why do I have an image of the plug being taken out of the drain of the multiverse?
Hardhead
Explorer
Beating the Lady of Pain ain't impossible to beat. Just really really tough.
FIRST, you'll need to hang out in Harbinger House. See the adventure of the same name. Assuming your DM hasn't run it yet, the Focrux (if I remember the name correctly) is still working. It protects anything in the House from scrying and detection. Even from the Lady of Pain herself.
Once you're there (I'd try masquerading as people with the divine spark, so the Godsmen would want you there), you can put a plan into action.
Now starts the tricky part. How do you kill her.
If you can somehow get your hands on the Last Word, you could do it. However, you'd have to be very Epic to be able to use it (and also play through Dead Gods and have a DM that you can pull something on!). I don't think any DM worth his screen would let you get away with that.
I might try questioning the Daubus. And by questioning, I mean torture. Of course, the Lady would normally kill you for that. But again, you're in the Harbinger House, so you should be fine.
A true god should be able to defeat her. The problem is getting one in. No one knows how to do that, but Skall might have some answers. After all, he Astral Projects into Sigil from the Negative Energy Plane... and that's supposed to be impossible. How he does that might be a clue.
(SPOILER FOR FACTOL'S MANIFESTO AND FACTION WAR) Hashkar is a petitioner of Sigil and/or the Lady of Pain. Somehow, perhaps his connection could be exploited.
FIRST, you'll need to hang out in Harbinger House. See the adventure of the same name. Assuming your DM hasn't run it yet, the Focrux (if I remember the name correctly) is still working. It protects anything in the House from scrying and detection. Even from the Lady of Pain herself.
Once you're there (I'd try masquerading as people with the divine spark, so the Godsmen would want you there), you can put a plan into action.
Now starts the tricky part. How do you kill her.
If you can somehow get your hands on the Last Word, you could do it. However, you'd have to be very Epic to be able to use it (and also play through Dead Gods and have a DM that you can pull something on!). I don't think any DM worth his screen would let you get away with that.
I might try questioning the Daubus. And by questioning, I mean torture. Of course, the Lady would normally kill you for that. But again, you're in the Harbinger House, so you should be fine.
A true god should be able to defeat her. The problem is getting one in. No one knows how to do that, but Skall might have some answers. After all, he Astral Projects into Sigil from the Negative Energy Plane... and that's supposed to be impossible. How he does that might be a clue.
(SPOILER FOR FACTOL'S MANIFESTO AND FACTION WAR) Hashkar is a petitioner of Sigil and/or the Lady of Pain. Somehow, perhaps his connection could be exploited.
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