Improving Monk Damage

the_bruiser · Mar 7, 2004

Greetings all. I'm playing a 5th level monk / 5th level tattooed monk and would appreciate some advice. It's a fairly low-magic campaign. I chose to go high-dex with him, but am becoming frustrated with his inability to do much damage in combat.

For what it's worth, the other party members are:

a ranger/cleric sword & boarder with high strength, buffed by bull's strenth

a fighter with greatsword

a rogue/mage with high dex, TWF, buffed with cat's grace, and sneak attack

They are all much more effective than my character in combat - they'll attack two or three times and do 15-25 damage per hit, while my monk will attack four times (he has the wasp tattoo) and do only 6-7 per hit. He doesn't have specialization, a magic weapon, a high strength, sneak attack, any of those things that do a lot.

Now, I'm okay with his doing less damage than others, that's okay, I knew that going in, I just want to make it closer if I can. I'd just like to see if there are some ways to make him better.

I have the basic 3.0 books and Oriental Adventures - any suggestions from other sources would be helpful if they include good detail on cost and requirements for creation. I've heard of an amulet that gives you +/+ as if your hands were magical, and I've heard of a way to make gloves or bracers flaming, shocking, etc., but don't know where to find the rules on such things.

Any help would be appreciated.

wolfen · Mar 7, 2004

the_bruiser said:
They are all much more effective than my character in combat - they'll attack two or three times and do 15-25 damage per hit, while my monk will attack four times (he has the wasp tattoo) and do only 6-7 per hit. He doesn't have specialization, a magic weapon, a high strength, sneak attack, any of those things that do a lot.

My favorite aspect of the monk is how effective he can be at trip/disarm/grapple, etc. These are part of what make a monk an asset to a team. He can move in quickly to create problems and the less maneuverable team members will have an easier time.

In general, you will probably be most effective getting behind enemy lines and tripping or grappling the most dangerous looking opponents, snatching wands, etc. Not exchanging blows with them 1 for 1.

What you might find helpful is something that lets you ENLARGE at will or nearly so.

wolfen

Artoomis · Mar 7, 2004

Actually, I'll suggest you focus on a different route.

Concentrate on what you are good at. Start using disarm or sunder when ever you can. Especially disarm, if you took Improved Disarm. You can attempt it once for every attack you use, and, if successful, use on of your attacks to throw it where it cannot be easily retrieved (behind friendly lines, etc.).

Granted, disarming won't work against critters that don't use weapons, but you are not a prime combatant. If you focus on defense as well as disarming, you can try and use yourself to do things like draw attacks away from other party members (increasing overall successes) or use "aid another" to help out - that one is kind of a boring action, I know.

Also, if possible, get a tattoo that lets you fly. Is that even possible? If so, it would make a bog difference.

James McMurray · Mar 7, 2004

Amulet of Mighty fists is in Sword and Fist and the 3.5 DMG. It gives +1-+5 enhancment. t costs three times the base price for a weapon of the same enhancement.

Bracers of Striking from MoF allow for adding different enhancements. Not sure on the cost.

Amulet of Natural Weaponry (Savage Species) is like Bracers of Striking. Its cost for a monk is a topic of debate (its some multiple of the base cost for a weapon, but whether that multiple is 1, 2, 3, or 50 is a bit vague).

Improved Natural Attack is in the 3.5 MM (and maybe Savage Species?). Its a feat that increases the size category of your unarmed strikes.

There is a martial arts style (Open Hand Mastery?) in OA that also increases the size of your unarmed strikes.

Getting both the feat and the Style would bump your base damage from 1d10 per hit to 4d6 per hit (verage 5.5 to average 14).

If you don't have an item to enhance strength, get one or convince a spellcaster to give you Bull's Strength. It looks like you're playing 3.0, so its a sinle 2nd level slot to increase your damage output all day long.

Artoomis · Mar 7, 2004

wolfen said:
...In general, you will probably be most effective getting behind enemy lines and tripping or grappling the most dangerous looking opponents, snatching wands, etc. Not exchanging blows with them 1 for 1.

What you might find helpful is something that lets you ENLARGE at will or nearly so.
wolfen

I agree but, in general, tripping and grappling are not good options as they rely on strength (not a monk's best asset, usually) and can have grave results for failure.

the_bruiser · Mar 7, 2004

James McMurray said:
Amulet of Mighty fists is in Sword and Fist and the 3.5 DMG. It gives +1-+5 enhancment. t costs three times the base price for a weapon of the same enhancement.

Interesting...

Bracers of Striking from MoF allow for adding different enhancements. Not sure on the cost.

This seems like the best option for what I want. I do have MoF and had not looked there. It's cost is 2x, still steep, but this should work.

Amulet of Natural Weaponry (Savage Species) is like Bracers of Striking. Its cost for a monk is a topic of debate (its some multiple of the base cost for a weapon, but whether that multiple is 1, 2, 3, or 50 is a bit vague).

Don't have SS, but I can use the bracers above.

Improved Natural Attack is in the 3.5 MM (and maybe Savage Species?). Its a feat that increases the size category of your unarmed strikes.

Don't have the 3.5MM, but that sounds kind of cheesy for a human to take? I want to make him better, but don't want to game the system unreasonably... I'll think about this, but it actually sounds overpowered for the cost of one feat.

There is a martial arts style (Open Hand Mastery?) in OA that also increases the size of your unarmed strikes.

Found this - that's a lot of feats, more than he has, and he doesn't qualify for at least one (power attack min str 13, I think).

Getting both the feat and the Style would bump your base damage from 1d10 per hit to 4d6 per hit (verage 5.5 to average 14).

Sounds *awesome*, but problems per above.

If you don't have an item to enhance strength, get one or convince a spellcaster to give you Bull's Strength. It looks like you're playing 3.0, so its a sinle 2nd level slot to increase your damage output all day long.

Thought about this, but reluctant. Our only character with that spell is the ranger/cleric, and he already reserves 2/d for his own use, and with only one (effective level) 6th level cleric in a party of six 10th-12th level character, he guards his spells jealously, which I can respect.

Thanks to the rest of you for your comments; he's already doing grappling against enemy spellcasters/rogues where possible. He's not strong enough to make sunder worthwhile, though, and trip doesn't work as well.

Plus, because we're so low-magic (no fireballs, even), I (as DM) can put us up against large numbers of lower-level opponents and still have fun, tactically-challenging combats - but trip/disarm/sunder/etc. are a lot less effective when you just have 20 guys you have to mow through, I think. In the bigger-bad-guy fights, you're exactly right.

Scion · Mar 7, 2004

use the 3.5 version of the monks belt.

SRD:
Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.
Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

And the improved natural attack feat is legal, and imo, perfectly reasonable for a feat. It is roughly the equivalent of exotic weapon proficiency but for monks, druids, and monsters.

SRD:
IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8

Those two things together, along with some of the bracers from above, should put you into a happier range of damage while still not being able to do as much as the other people. Sounds almost exactly like what you are going for

Edit: oh, and look at the complete warrior for some feats to bring across. Sun Schoot [tactical feat] would be great for your guy! Inexorable progress of dawn indeed..lol.. along with things like prone attack and such. And something which would allow you to disarm a lot of opponents at once if you roll well enough and have enough skill. Lots of good, fairly low magic, stuff in there.

(yes I know you said 3.0, but it shouldnt be hard to convert any of these, most came from 3.0 unchanged anyway, or have nothing in them that would need to be changed)

the_bruiser · Mar 7, 2004

Scion said:
use the 3.5 version of the monks belt.

SRD:
Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.
Moderate transmutation; CL 10th; Craft Wondrous Item, righteous might or transformation; Price 13,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.

And the improved natural attack feat is legal, and imo, perfectly reasonable for a feat. It is roughly the equivalent of exotic weapon proficiency but for monks, druids, and monsters.

SRD:
IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8

Those two things together, along with some of the bracers from above, should put you into a happier range of damage while still not being able to do as much as the other people. Sounds almost exactly like what you are going for

Edit: oh, and look at the complete warrior for some feats to bring across. Sun Schoot [tactical feat] would be great for your guy! Inexorable progress of dawn indeed..lol.. along with things like prone attack and such. And something which would allow you to disarm a lot of opponents at once if you roll well enough and have enough skill. Lots of good, fairly low magic, stuff in there.

(yes I know you said 3.0, but it shouldnt be hard to convert any of these, most came from 3.0 unchanged anyway, or have nothing in them that would need to be changed)

Holy moly. Thanks! The monk's belt above is (believe it or not) WAY outside the economic reach of the party right now, much less the Monk. Paying 3,000+ for the basic materials of +1 bracers of striking (1000+ basic item, +2000x2 enchantment, divided by two if party-made) is beyond his current reach , but at least within sight in a level or two.... the 6500 for the belt is not

. On top of that, our highest level spells are 3rd, and it requires 5th or 6th to create.

But you've kind of swayed me on the natural attack thing... and that's going to make all the difference in the world - 2d8 vs d10 is a vast improvement. Thanks!

EDIT - Question - does everyone else agree that the feat is reasonable for a monk? I really don't want to do anything inappropriate/cheesy.

Artoomis · Mar 7, 2004

the_bruiser said:
...EDIT - Question - does everyone else agree that the feat is reasonable for a monk? I really don't want to do anything inappropriate/cheesy.

There was quite a debate on this not too long ago. The end result, at least in our game, was that the monk cannot take that feat because he pretty much has it already.

Some think he technically does not qualify, but that argument is rather hyper-technical and weak.

Some think it is just too powerful a feat (too much benefit) for a monk, and that's kind of where our group ended up.

James McMurray · Mar 7, 2004

I see it is being just fine.

I can't get the formatting right, but the general info is still there:

Code:

Levels Monk w/o Feat	  Monk w/feat
------ --------------	  ------------
  1-3	  1d6 (3.5)			1d8 (4.5)
  4-7	  1d8 (4.5)			2d6 (7)
  8-11	1d10 (5.5)		   2d8 (9)
 12-15	2d6 (7)			   2d8 (9)
 16-19	2d8 (9)			   4d6 (14)
   20	  2d10 (11)			4d8 (18)

At your party's level you'll gain an average of 3.5 points of damage per hit. But you'll also not gain any extra damage when you hit 12th level, because 1d0 and 2d6 both convert to 2d8. If you can't pick it up until 12th level anyway, then you'll only gain an average of 2 points of damage per hit. That's comparable to Weapon Specialization.

At 16th level you'll jump to +5 damage per hit, slightly better than greater weapon specialization. At 20th you get +7 per hit. Much better than GWS, but your to hit bonus and strength are less than a comparably levelled fighter's, so you'll still do less damage on average.

Throughout all levels it is slightly better than the level of Specialization that a fighter can get. However, the fighter will have better weapons (because it always costs at least double to enchant fists) and he'll have a higher BAB. He'll also usualy have a higher strength. In your case he definitely will.

Combining it with the Style can definitely get nasty though. I had a half-ogre monk that was dealing 8d8 damage per hit with his unarmed strikes because of three size increases, and all of it was doable even without magic. But even that was at the cost of an entire boatload of feats, and required being in epic levels.