D&D 3E/3.5 Savage Species, Succubus, and 3.5.

Jhulae · Mar 11, 2004

Succubi have a level progression set out in Savage Species.

However, since SS was produced between 3.0 and 3.5, some things just don't quite mesh with MM 3.5, especially the lesser and greater succubus powers.

How should the class be updated to make it 3.5 compatable? Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.

Ranes · Mar 11, 2004

Okay, I've never tried to answer a request like this before, so bear in mind I'm approaching this from the angle of trying to help, not being any kind of authority on SS-3.5 integration.

Keep the acquisition of lesser and greater powers as described in SS but remember that the 3.5 succubus doesn't get doom, clairaudience/clairvoyance, darkness, desecrate or unholy blight. I would leave the remaining powers in the lesser/greater categories SS places them into. Alternate Form (Su) appears to have been replaced by polymorph limited to humanoid forms with no maximum duration. I'd give the succubus this ability at 1st level but determine the caster level as the succubus level, for the purposes of calculating other limitations on chosen form. Teleport without error is replaced by greater teleport easily enough. I'd keep the SS guidelines on how the various powers scale up, as the succubus advances in levels.

In SS the creature's DR is 10/+2 at 11th level. In 3.5 it's 10/cold iron or good. I think that can be swapped straight in at 11th level.

Then there's the SR. Here, SS says this is 6 + HD from class levels but that won't get us to 3.5's SR of 18, so I would make it 6 + class level. That gets us to the right (3.5) SR for a fully developed succubus. I realise that the lower level creature is more spell resistant this way but that makes up for those low-level spell-like abilities the creature lost (see last paragraph) in the transition to 3.5.

That seems to take care of the differences, unless I've missed something. I confess to not having checked the skill point totals but I'd wager only the tiniest of tweaks might be necessary there, if at all. I've also made these suggestions based on having access to SS and MM 3.5. I couldn't cross-reference with a 3.0 MM, because I've donated my copy to a worthy cause.

I hope you find these suggestions helpful.

allenw · Mar 11, 2004

Just remember: All Succubi should take Improved Grapple as soon as possible, so potential "boyfriends" can't prevent their smooches with swords.

Jhulae · Mar 12, 2004

allenw said:
Just remember: All Succubi should take Improved Grapple as soon as possible, so potential "boyfriends" can't prevent their smooches with swords.

That's what Suggestion is for.. "Aww.. I'm sorry. Let me kiss it and make it all better".

Jhulae · Mar 14, 2004

Ranes said:
Okay, I've never tried to answer a request like this before, so bear in mind I'm approaching this from the angle of trying to help, not being any kind of authority on SS-3.5 integration.

Keep the acquisition of lesser and greater powers as described in SS but remember that the 3.5 succubus doesn't get doom, clairaudience/clairvoyance, darkness, desecrate or unholy blight. I would leave the remaining powers in the lesser/greater categories SS places them into. Alternate Form (Su) appears to have been replaced by polymorph limited to humanoid forms with no maximum duration. I'd give the succubus this ability at 1st level but determine the caster level as the succubus level, for the purposes of calculating other limitations on chosen form. Teleport without error is replaced by greater teleport easily enough. I'd keep the SS guidelines on how the various powers scale up, as the succubus advances in levels.

In SS the creature's DR is 10/+2 at 11th level. In 3.5 it's 10/cold iron or good. I think that can be swapped straight in at 11th level.

Then there's the SR. Here, SS says this is 6 + HD from class levels but that won't get us to 3.5's SR of 18, so I would make it 6 + class level. That gets us to the right (3.5) SR for a fully developed succubus. I realise that the lower level creature is more spell resistant this way but that makes up for those low-level spell-like abilities the creature lost (see last paragraph) in the transition to 3.5.

That seems to take care of the differences, unless I've missed something. I confess to not having checked the skill point totals but I'd wager only the tiniest of tweaks might be necessary there, if at all. I've also made these suggestions based on having access to SS and MM 3.5. I couldn't cross-reference with a 3.0 MM, because I've donated my copy to a worthy cause.

I hope you find these suggestions helpful.

Okay, here's a question though.

When should they get their magic resistance? Since they lose a lot of the minor powers (especially darkness) that could have helped them survive magical attacks (or any attacks, really), shouldn't they get SR earlier to make up for the lost powers?

Ranes · Mar 14, 2004

Well, as I said, I would give them SR from level one. In SS, the succubus gets 6 + HD SR and has a final SR of 12. Here's what an SS (3.0) succubus SR would be at each level.

Level HD SR
1____1__7
2____2__8
3____2__8
4____3__9
5____3__9
6____4__10
7____4__10
8____5__11
9____5__11
10___6__12
11___6__12
12___6__12

Here's how things would look under my proposal (SR = 6 + class level) for getting to 3.5's final SR of 18.

Level HD SR
1____1__7
2____2__8
3____2__9
4____3__10
5____3__11
6____4__12
7____4__13
8____5__14
9____5__15
10___6__16
11___6__17
12___6__18

No difference until 3rd level but then the 3.5/SS succubus benefits from improved SR. I see your point about making up for lost abilities and I thought about that when first replied. But my suggestion is as close to the way that I think the designers were thinking as I can get.

I also just noticed (in a borrowed copy of the MM) that the 3.0 succubus is CR 9. In SS and 3.5 it's CR 7. I wonder if some of those abilities the 3.5 succubus lost should have been written out of the SS entry. That would have gone some way to accounting for the different CRs.

Just a thought.

Edited for some brutal table formatting. (Behold!) I know there's a better way; I just don't know what it is. Must read that FAQ...

foxylady · Mar 20, 2004

No LA reduction?

Losing 5 SLAs should have been worth at least -1 LA. 6 LA for the current list of powers is real weak.

Cheiromancer · Apr 21, 2004

With the loss of powers, how about try them as a +4 LA race?

Here's a stab at statting them out in a 10 level class. I gave them more natural armor at the start, since without any magical powers they will need some kind of combat ability. I also gave them their full intelligence boost up front, as otherwise their skill points are off. (An increase in the intelligence bonus doesn't retroactively affect skills). Damage reduction is gradual.

I gave them tongues as a lesser succubus ability. It can be cast as a free action even on someone else's turn, so it should work out the same as the standard succubus ability. Telepathy is gradual; first they can only communicate with demons, then they can only communicate in abyssal, and finally they can communicate with anything with a language. By habit and custom they will use tongues to speak with mortals.

Saves, skills and BAB can all be computed from their hit dice, so I'll leave that out. And refer to the 3.5 MM for explanations and clarifications.

The Succubus:

[Insert Flavor text here]

Outsider traits: good BAB, Good saves, skill points/level = 8+int bonus (x4 at 1st level), darkvision 60 ft., cannot be raised, proficient with all simple and martial weapons. Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can if they wish).

Starting Ability Modifiers: +6 Int, +8 Cha

Class skills: bluff, concentration, diplomacy, disguise, escape artist, hide, intimidate, knowledge (any), listen, move silently, search, spot, survival, use rope

Skill bonuses: +8 racial bonus on listen and spot checks. +10 circumstance bonus to disguise checks when using alternate form ability.

Code:

1st level	1d8	2 claws 1d3, alternate form (1), +5 natural armor, SR, 
                          subtypes (chaotic, evil)
2nd level	2d8	+2 Wis, lesser succubus powers 1/day, resistances 5,
                          telepathy (100 ft. demons only)
3rd level	3d8	+2 Cha, alternate form (3), +6 natural armor
4th level	3d8	+2 Dex, lesser succubus powers 3/day, telepathy 
                          (abyssal only)
5th level	4d8	+2 Cha, alternate form (any humanoid), energy 
                          drain 1/day, fly 50 ft. (average), +7 natural armor, 
                          resistances 10
6th level	4d8	+2 Con, DR 5/cold iron or good or magic, lesser succubus
                          powers at will, succubus powers 1/day
7th level	5d8	+2 Cha, energy drain 3/day, +8 natural armor
8th level	5d8	+2 Wis, DR 5/cold iron or good, electricty immunity,
                          succubus powers 3/day, telepathy (unrestricted)
9th level	6d8	+2 Cha, energy drain at will, +9 natural armor
10th level	6d8	+2 Str, DR 10/cold iron or good, succubus powers 
                          at will, summon tanar’ri (vrock 30% chance)

Spell Restance: SR = succubus class level + 8
resistances: acid, cold, electricity and fire
lesser succubus powers: darkness, detect good, detect thoughts, suggestion, tongues (immediate action)
succubus powers: charm monster, ethereal jaunt (personal plus 50 lbs of equipment), greater teleport
(save DC = 10 + 1/2 hit dice + cha modifier)