What is "grim and gritty" and "low magic" anyway?

Wulf Ratbane · Mar 12, 2004

Gothmog said:
Very good points. Low magic games do tend to be much more character oriented, and IME the players have had to think much more and use sound tactics to overcome odds rather than blowing through it with obscene amounts of magic. Characters rely on their skills and knowledge, not on their nifty magical gizmos. And you are right in that without some sort of modification to the core system, low magic games with the normal D&D classes simply fall apart fairly quickly.

Excellent analysis.

By contrast, "high magic" means that players do not have to think. They will have a magic item or spell to solve every problem-- even death!-- and if they don't, they can just nip down to the corner and buy one. Skills are meaningless, as there is a spell that can do anything you can do better, easier, or quicker.

There is no fear of the unknown (divination).

There is no moral uncertainty (commune).

There are no arduous journeys (teleporation).

There is no heroic sacrifice (raise dead).

A high magic game removes obstacles from the players' path-- those very same obstacles that have traditionally defined a good story.

All that being said, not everyone plays D&D to create a good story. Sometimes it's about killing things and taking their loot, and I enjoy that, too.

Wulf

Inconsequenti-AL · Mar 12, 2004

Hong, that's pretty much my take on Grim 'n gritty. Does not need special rules to make it work - unbeatable threats will do!

IME, how easy it is to spot which kind of challenge something is also has a noticable effect on the game:

1: The unbeatable challenges are obviously plastered with 'steer clear signs'. e.g.The kingdom is ruled by an Evil Great Wyrm Dragon. The players are 3rd level.

2: The unbeatable stuff is everywhere. e.g. 1 in every 100 people is a 20th level lich lord with an unbeatable disguise. You fight someone you might get an interesting suprise.

In 1, the players can still be very 'heroic' - they can set their mind to doing things that don't involve fighting the problem directly. For 2, IME, players will become amoral very quickly - won't do anything without severe compulsion or tempted by great rewards...

Both can be fun. (if run right.)

However:
It's simpler breaking into orcs appartments and stealing their TVs.
Take to dealer.
Swap for magical 'crystals'.

Often more fun.

Hong said:
"Gritty" is one of those words that means what you want it to mean. It's a bit like "munchkin" in that regard.

A remarkably good point! 'Low magic' is rather similar - covers a multitude of sins!

Inconsequenti-AL · Mar 12, 2004

Wulf Ratbane said:
By contrast, "high magic" means that players do not have to think. They will have a magic item or spell to solve every problem-- even death!-- and if they don't, they can just nip down to the corner and buy one. Skills are meaningless, as there is a spell that can do anything you can do better, easier, or quicker.

There is no fear of the unknown (divination).

There is no moral uncertainty (commune).

There are no arduous journeys (teleporation).

There is no heroic sacrifice (raise dead).

A high magic game removes obstacles from the players' path-- those very same obstacles that have traditionally defined a good story.

That is one take on high magic games... Sounds remarkably close to the first high level game I ran.

It wasn't good and eventually imploded.

Viewed differentley, those factors you mention simply change the type of obstacles the players should face.

It happens all the way along as the game progresses. Certain types of magic render certain obstacles very easy.

Need to cross a river: Craft a raft (1st-4th), Fly (5th), Dimension door (7th), Wall of stone (9th)? It just gets progressively easier as you go!

What I mean is divinations, teleports et al can be worked into a game in interesting ways, rather than removing any semblance of a challenge. You just end up solving new and different challenges?

S'mon · Mar 12, 2004

BTW I wish the 'high magic' and 'low magic' crowds would stop with the slagging off each other's play styles. We've heard it all before, and you can run a good game in either style. Core-D&D is built more for one style than the other, but neither is an invalid way to play.

Calico_Jack73 · Mar 12, 2004

Low Magic: Magic items are not commonplace. Wizardly characters are either not allowed for PC's or have serious restrictions put on them (such as a mandatory 18 INT). Slower spell progression for spell casters (if there are any). Unless you are a class dedicated to magic no magic is available (no magic using Rangers, Paladins, Bards, etc).

Grim & Gritty: No resurrection magic. Once you are dead, that's it... you are DEAD, DEAD, DEAD! Usually they use a more deadly combat system to make PC react appropriately to the threat of death. I've incorporated an instant death rule for D&D Firearms in my Forgotten Realms campaign and it works well. When hit with a firearm the victim must make a Fortitude save vs DC 10 plus damage dealt. If they fail then they are immediately dropped to zero hit points and begin dying. Firearms only threaten instant death against creatures one size category larger than the gun. A human sized pistol could kill a Large creature instantly but not a Huge. Needless to say, my players duck for cover now when firearms come into play.

rounser · Mar 12, 2004

Reducing magic does not unbalance the game as long as the DM takes into account that magic has been reduced in other areas of the game.

Obviously, a party without magic will not be able to deal with monsters which can only be harmed by magic. That's a DM call - he needs to design his world, and his adventures, to make sure that the lack of magic is not a disadvantage. This requires some effort on his part, but it is not necessarily unbalancing, and certainly isn't wrong in any way.

In my experience, the low-magic-game-running DMs I've played with don't exactly do that in more than a token sense, and it's been mostly about putting restrictions on the PCs - castrating magic-using classes with house rules and cutting well back on servings of magic items. They'd go so far as to make NPC wizards rare, but highly magical monsters like demons still turned up in large numbers in these campaigns, for instance (and led to TPKs more than once too). I suspect a lot of DMs were swayed to react in this way as a response to the magic item creation rules introduced for 3E, which appear to trivialise the specialness or rarity of magic in their settings to a certain extent, by handing over some control of it to players.

nothing to see here · Mar 12, 2004

Maybe its just me, but I always just assumed Grim and Gritty was a term to bridge a barrier that keeps DND scenes from easily being imagined...namely that the rules provide unexplained super-resilliency to all characters.

No matter how you define HP as an 'abstract measure of ability to stay in combat' or what have you, there still is a significant suspension of disbelief, even among many extremely cinematic players that a 10th level fighter can still easily take 5 HITS WITH AN AXE, and still keep on fighting as if nothing was wrong.

Grim and Gritty rulesets (which I do prefer) seek to remedy this situation. They do tend to increase character mortality (which, depending on your campaign need not be a bad thing)...but at the same time it hads a hint of threat where it was missing, and creates a much more evoctative campaign...true heroes surrounded by a world of danger.

Hand of Evil · Mar 12, 2004

Grim and Gritty - Life is tough, you live, you die and the time between is hard and dirty. In game terms, hits hurt you more (increase dice range 15-20 critical) and will have some form of lasting effect (infection, scarring, body part lose). The players fear death, because odds are not good they will make it out of an encounter alive!

Low magic - magic is not as easy to cast or not that common, casting takes a more 'power' / special location / time to perform.

el-remmen · Mar 12, 2004

I have been running a "low magic" game for just over 3 years now and I have not found it unbalanced at all. Admittedly, I have had to do some tweaking and adjusting as we went along, but for the most part it has been fair, fun and has worked out.

I find that if you do not allow mages to choose any spell they like as they rise in level (i.e. making them work to learn them and dividing spells up into rarity), and craft unique spell lists for clerics depending on which power they worship spell-casters do not outstrip non-spellcasters in the game - and various problems and conflicts and obstacles are overcome by means of ingenuity, not some spell.

I also created a more broad spectrum of types of masterwork weapons (with pluses going up to +3, and depending on how it is crafted applying to attack roll or damage or both).

As for grim/ gritty, yeah. . .I like gritty. I like grim - for me 'grim'
means tough moral choices and 'gritty' means that if you get killed by a dragon's bite you get bitten in half and partially swallowed, or if you lose an eye you take permanent penalties to attack rolls and spot checks, or crowds of starving diseased commoners will mob a paladin that starts "removing disease" willy-nilly. . it means that when the party walks down the street in an urban area, people are dumping their chamber pots out their windows, and dead or dying people are found in the gutter, in some places babies are left out to die of exposure if people cannot afford to raise them. . . etc. . .

doghead · Mar 12, 2004

For me, being a dog of small brain, its more simple. I play low level games cos the high level games are too complicated. Magic tends to be rarer at lower levels, and less spectacular - +1 sword, cloak of elvankind, that sort of thing. More powerful magic and magic users exist in the setting, but they are forces that are beyond the characters abilities to defeat or control. So, as hong so nicely put, these games could be described as gng as the players will never truely overcome and master the world they inhabit. A poor decision (by which I mean badly considered, not just unlucky) when encountering these forces will more than likely have adverse consequences. Poor decisions should. The charcaters will however, hopefully, also have great victories and triumphs. I want my players coming to the game eagerly anticipating the challenges ahead, but also keenly aware of the risks that their character takes.

All this I can do better in a low level setting - so I stay at the shallow end of the pool.

A man's gotta know his limitations. CE aka DH

Woof!

the head of the dog

Aside: Thanks Morrus.