the Awakened Animal thread

Hang on, not so fast. This one is representative of a whole bunch of small animals, so it's worth getting it right the first time.

I actually think awakened cat may be a -1 LA, for an ECL of 1.

Leopold: How would you play a Swashbuckler with this one? Remember it's not an anthropomorphic cat, it's your regular housecat without hands! Which means no weapon use, no tool use for the Rogue, and no somatic components for spellcasters. You can work around all of those problems, but it's definitely a factor to keep in mind when calculating LA.

Oh, and it's also size Tiny, so your Swashbuckler (or Rogue) would be drawing an AoO each time it enters someone else's space to attack (Reach 0').

Low-ECL critters like this may not be as "sexy" to work on, but there is a demand for playing these awakened common animals, and their low ECL means that they're much more accessible for a beginning PC than some high-ECL monstrocity...

While we wait for the Tiger and the Cat, here are some quick LA estimates I came up with by comparison with the Anthropomorphic animals in Savage Species.

Anthropomorphic template rescales al S-M-L critters to Medium size, 2HD. So low-HD Medium animals are least problematic for making the anthropomorphic vs. awakened comparison:

Baboon: 1HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 3HD, +1 LA (hands!)
Dog, Riding: 2HD; anthro: 2HD, +2 LA; awakened: 4HD, +1 LA?
Donkey: 2HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 4HD, +0 LA?
Pony: 2HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 4HD, +0 LA?
Pony, War: 2HD; anthro: 2HD, +2 LA; awakened: 4HD, +1 LA?
Porpoise: 2HD; anthro: 2HD, +2 LA; awakened: 4HD, +1 LA?
Snake, Medium Viper: 2HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 4HD, +0 LA?
Wolf: 2HD; anthro: 2HD, +2 LA; awakened: 4HD, +1 LA

I think these estimates would work fairly well. For awakened LA, I subtracted 1 from the anthropomorphic LA, except for the baboon which has hands in both cases.


Higher-HD Medium animals reduce in HD with the anthropomorphic template, but gain 2HD with awaken. Their LA's may be an overestimate for the higher-HD version:

Bear, Black: 3HD; anthro: 2HD, +2 LA; awakened: 5HD, +1 LA?
Boar: 3HD; anthro: 2HD, +2 LA; awakened: 5HD, +1 LA?
Cheetah: 3HD; anthro: 2HD, +2 LA; awakened: 5HD, +1 LA?
Crocodile: 3HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 5HD, +0 LA?
Leopard: 3HD; anthro: 2HD, +2 LA; awakened: 5HD, +1 LA?
Lizard, Monitor: 3HD; anthro: 2HD, +0 LA; awakened: 5HD, -1 LA?
Shark, Medium: 3HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 5HD, +0 LA?
Constrictor Snake: 3HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 5HD, +0 LA?
Squid: 3HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 5HD, +0 LA?
Wolverine: 3HD; anthro: 2HD, +2 LA; awakened: 5HD, +1 LA?


For Small animals, the anthropomorphic template applies a size change to Medium (including changes in physical stats), which is worth about +1 LA. So if we subtract 2 from the anthro LA, we might again get a reasonable awakened LA:

Badger: 1HD; anthro: 2HD, +3 LA; awakened: 3HD, +1 LA?? (*)
Dog: 1HD; anthro: 2HD, +2 LA; awakened: 3HD, +0 LA?
Eagle: 1HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 3HD, -1 LA?
Octopus: 2HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 4HD, -1 LA?
Snake, Small Viper: 1HD; anthro: 2HD, +1 LA; awakened: 3HD, -1 LA?

(*) Note: the anthropomorphic badger as listed in Savage Species is *wrong*. It seems to assume that a regular badger is a Tiny animal. Dunno how it affects the LA estimate...

Conaill said:

Hang on, not so fast. This one is representative of a whole bunch of small animals, so it's worth getting it right the first time.

I actually think awakened cat may be a -1 LA, for an ECL of 1.

Leopold: How would you play a Swashbuckler with this one? Remember it's not an anthropomorphic cat, it's your regular housecat without hands! Which means no weapon use, no tool use for the Rogue, and no somatic components for spellcasters. You can work around all of those problems, but it's definitely a factor to keep in mind when calculating LA.

Oh, and it's also size Tiny, so your Swashbuckler (or Rogue) would be drawing an AoO each time it enters someone else's space to attack (Reach 0').

Low-ECL critters like this may not be as "sexy" to work on, but there is a demand for playing these awakened common animals, and their low ECL means that they're much more accessible for a beginning PC than some high-ECL monstrocity...

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I cannot and will not ever reduce an ECL lower than it's HD. It is getting Hit points and abilities that go with the HD it gains at each level and would be counterproductive to the whole inner workings of an ECL.

I figured swashbuckler as just something off the cuff and a possibility, I watched the Shrek2 ad and thought of this.

As for rogune no weapon use: Who says that this thing has to wield weapons? Poison and stealth rule the day for this creature. Plus it's tiny and a cat! Who would suspect a cat? Noone said you have to charge in and kill everything and sneak attack?

As for spellcasters: Eschew materials and Natural spell. Give this thing a 3rd level and it will get both to take and be able to cast spells.




These 'animals' are far from being 'simple' but there are certain inner workings that you cannot change and the big one is 1HD=+1ECL as always.

Leopold said:

I cannot and will not ever reduce an ECL lower than it's HD. It is getting Hit points and abilities that go with the HD it gains at each level and would be counterproductive to the whole inner workings of an ECL.

These 'animals' are far from being 'simple' but there are certain inner workings that you cannot change and the big one is 1HD=+1ECL as always.

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Can you give an official quote that LA should never be less than zero? I seem to remember at least one official source stating that LA's can on very occasions be negative. Could be wrong about that, but it would be good to clear that up...

I don't see why non-negative Level Adjustments seems to be such a holy cow for you. LA is meant as an *adjustment* to the creature's level, to account for the fact that it may have a different power level than it's HD would indicate. Sure, it doesn't happen very often that the creature is actually *weaker* than it's HD indicates, but I see no good reason why it couldn't be.

Shouldn't there be some compensation for playing a monster race which is in virtually all aspects worse than a +0 LA race? What if we made a monster race that is significantly inferior in all aspects to, say, a human? Or do you really want to tell the player "Sorry, if you want to play a character like that, you'll just have to suck up the penalties. Feel free to screw yourself over, but I'm not assigning a negative LA to make up for the fact that you've picked an inferior monster race."?

Do we really want to assign, say, an awakened *toad* the same ECL as an awakened cat? After awakening they would both be 2HD creatures, but the toad is inferior in almost all aspects: speed 5', no natural weapons, lower Str, Dex and Cha, and worse skills (except for Hide). In return it gets one more point of AC (because of size) and two points of Wis. The only thing it could be good for is to make a crappy Cleric or Druid, but there's *no* way the loss of a whole spell level is worth the "benefits" you get from the awakened toad package.

Conaill said:

1. Can you give an official quote that LA should never be less than zero? I seem to remember at least one official source stating that LA's can very occasionally be negative.

I don't see why non-negative Level Adjustments are such a holy cow for you. LA is meant as an *adjustment* to the creature's level, to account for the fact that it may have a different power level than it's HD would indicate. Sure, it doesn't happen very often that the creature is actually *weaker* than it's HD indicates, but I see no good reason why it couldn't be.

2. Shouldn't there be some compensation for playing a monster race which is in virtually all aspects worse than a +0 LA race? What if we made a monster race that is significantly inferior in all aspects to, say, a human? Or do you really want to tell the player "Sorry, if you want to play a character like that, you'll just have to suck up the penalties. Feel free to screw yourself over, but I'm not assigning a negative LA to make up for the fact that you've picked an inferior monster race."?

3. Do we really want to assign, say, an awakened *toad* the same ECL as an awakened cat? After awakening they would both be 2HD creatures, but the toad is inferior in almost all aspects: speed 5', no natural weapons, lower Str, Dex and Cha, and worse skills (except for Hide). In return it gets one more point of AC (because of size) and two points of Wis. The only thing it could be good for is to make a crappy Cleric or Druid, but there's *no* way the loss of a whole spell level is worth the "benefits" you get from the awakened toad package.

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1. No I can't give you a source but to me it's the principle of the matter. Each level is at LEAST worth:

1 HD worth of hit points
1 set of abilities:feats, skills, breath weapons, fear save, etc
1 set of skill points

all that is worth a +1 to the total ECL.


Such as a first level human fighter is equivalent to a +1 ECL.


2. No. Playing monsters are something out of the 'normal' boundries of the core rules. It is not 'normal' that PC's are playing lizardmen, tentacle headed purple creatures, or floating balls of gas and eyes. These things are rare and few and far between, how common is it to see a mind flayer, a beholder, and a human barbarian all working together in your avg party?

Noone said playing them was easy, fun, or simple. You take the risks you reap the rewards, such is the way the game is played.

3. Yes. Again, you are taking something that is completely not in the scope of 'normal' pc's and trying to use it to play the game that was designed to handle such things but there are risks involved. We are 'bending' the ruleset to accomodate these monsters within the limits if we reduce the ECL to lower than the HD we throw off calculations that are setup to handle advancement.

Such as a awakened cat/sor 4 would be a 5th level PC even though it has 6HD?!?? I don't agree with that.




If you want to spice them up more to seem more 'intune' I would suggest giving them a bonus feat from a list of feats you would suggest an animal to have. In this regard the monster does not seem so 'out of place' in the party.

Suggestable feats would be:

Skill Focus: Survival, Hide, Listen, etc.
Alertness
Toughness
Acrobatic
Agile
Athletic
Blind Fighting
Investigator
Self-Sufficent
Stealthy


Normal feats that an animal 'could' in theory have due to their enviornmental upbringing. Perhaps that would be more in focus with keeping the ECL in line.

Leopold said:

As for rogune no weapon use: Who says that this thing has to wield weapons? Poison and stealth rule the day for this creature. Plus it's tiny and a cat! Who would suspect a cat? Noone said you have to charge in and kill everything and sneak attack?

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Yeah, I thought about Poison use as well. Don't know how many DM's would let you get away with poisoned claws without requiring some sort of poison immunity. Then there's the issue of how to apply the poison in the first place (I'd probably give it some serious penalties to do so without actual hands). And if it wants to use the poison.. it *still* draws an AoO any time it enters someone's square to attack them!

Yes, a sneaky rogue may be a reasonable alternative. But keep in mind that Sneak Attack is one of the Rogue's strongest class features, and not being able to do so should count as a serious penalty (see Vow of Nonviolence!). The second strong feature of the Rogue class is it's skill points, an area where the awakened cat is also seriously behind. Note that a sneaky rogue may also have need of skills such as Disable Device, Disguise (ok, maybe not... it's a friggin cat! ), Forgery, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device and Use Rope, *all* of which a cat without hands would have problems with.

As for spellcasters: Eschew materials and Natural spell. Give this thing a 3rd level and it will get both to take and be able to cast spells.

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Sure. So an awakened cat spellcaster starts out being two feats behind a regular spellcaster just to be able to cast spells. Not to mention that it will also be a full spell level behind because of the two non-spellcaster HD. Pretty lousy deal, if you ask me.

Conaill said:

Sure. So an awakened cat spellcaster starts out being two feats behind a regular spellcaster just to be able to cast spells. Not to mention that it will also be a full spell level behind because of the two non-spellcaster HD. Pretty lousy deal, if you ask me.

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I don't know if your getting this but ITS A FRIGGIN CAT! Your trying to balance the play of a elven wizard against a CAT! It's not going to make sense, it's not going to be easy, it's not going to be simple or pretty.

Sure your going to lose out but noone is forcing you take a level in anything or be this race. You accept the losses and the penalties. ECL's are meant to be taken as an alternate and not a primary race or else everyone would take them. I would rather have a player take an ECL and say "It sucks, but i'll try it" rather than "Oh HELL YEAH GIMME THAT!" and it wreak havok on the game.

And yes any animal is not definately going to be an ubermage or some great deer barbarian. This is why they are MONSTERS, they are not meant to be PC's.

Sure it's a friggin cat. (Actually, it's a magical, talking cat with 2HD.) But the ECL mechanism is in place exactly to be able to balance out power differences between monster races and the standard races. I don't see why it wouldn't work just as well on the low end of the ECL scale as on the high end. If Savage Species provides rules for players to run an Incarnate Stone Golem (ECL 20!) character in an Epic campaign, why couldn't we have rules to allow us to play a bunch of awakened animals in search of their kidnapped druid?

Sure, a "friggin cat", or even better a "friggin toad", even 2HD one, is not much of a match against a 2nd-lvl human. That's exactly the point. An awakened toad would be essentially unplayable in a 2nd level party, and it would need a serious boost in order for anyone to even consider it playable. (Just like a regular human in a party of illithid would need a serious boost to be considered playable.) Even with an extra character level an awakened toad is going to have serious trouble in a 2nd level party.

BTW, like you, I am definitely in favor of estimating LA's on the high side. So yes indeed, the player should typically say "it sucks, but I'll try it". But I wouldn't want him to say "That's so underpowered that no sane player would even consider playing it"! We can argue whether or not the awakened cat is balanced as a +0 LA race. But for some of the others such as the toad or the mouse (published elsewhere as a familiar) there's little doubt that they would be completely underpowered as a +0 LA.

see my previous post. Giving them a Bonus Feat amongst others would even the odds and keep the LA in line.

Oops... just noticed your last post on the previous page.

1) I agree that we could give the weaker awakened animals some other bonuses to make up for their weaknesses. But I *do* want to stick as close as possible to the standard Awaken spell, so that option is out as far as this thread is concerned.

2) I would rather label an awakened animal as LA: - than to give it a +0 LA if it's not balanced as a +0 LA race. At least we won't be deceiving people that way.

Overall, I don't think small negative LA's would be game breaking in any way. Sure, a -1 LA creature will have slightly more hitpoints than expected, but that's nothing that couldn't be achieved with the Toughness feat or a high-Con creature anyways. And it'll be immune to things like Cause Fear one level earlier, but so what?

I'd love to see an example where having an ECL that's one lower than HD would actually cause serious trouble in the system. As long as we're careful and make sure the ECL is balanced (and ideally a little on the high side), I don't think we shoudl run into any problems.