DrSpunj's Class Balance Spreadsheet

DrSpunj · Apr 29, 2004

Okay, ouini, you can correct me if I use your system incorrectly, but here are my quick calculations for a Rogue through the first few levels.

Level 1
Hit Points: 6 (4 free, +2 pts)
BAB: +0 (+.5 free, +0 pts)
SPs: (8+IntMod)x4 (+2 free, +6 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +0/+2/+0 (+2 free, +0 pts)
W/A Profs: Simple Weapons, Swords & Bows; Light Armor (Basic Weapons free, +2 pts for Simple Weapons, +2 pts for Swords, +2 pts for Bows, +2 pts for Light Armor; +8 pts total)
Feats: Trapfinding (free; +4 pts for Ability chain - Sneak Attack +1d6; +4 pts total)

Total points = 20 pts, 10 "banked"

Level 2
Hit Points: d6 (d4 free, +2 pts)
BAB: +1 (+.5 free, +0 pts)
SPs: (8+IntMod) (+2 free, +6 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +0/+3/+0 (+1 free, +0 pts)
W/A Profs: None
Feats: Evasion (+4 pts for Non-Fighting Ability chain; +4 pts total)

Total points = 12, 16 "banked"

Level 3
Hit Points: d6 (d4 free, +2 pts)
BAB: +2 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (8+IntMod) (+2 free, +6 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +1/+3/+1 (+1 free, +1 for +2 pts)
W/A Profs: None
Feats: Sneak Attack (+6 pts for Fighting Ability chain 2 levels later; +6 pts total)

Total points = 20, 14 "banked"

Level 4
Hit Points: d6 (d4 free, +2 pts)
BAB: +3 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (8+IntMod) (+2 free, +6 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +1/+4/+1 (+1 free, +0 pts)
W/A Profs: None
Feats: Uncanny Dodge (Dex) (+8 pts for Fighting Ability chain; +8 pts total)

Total points = 20, 12 "banked"

I could go on, but I want to make sure that I've paid the appropriate costs, ouini. Overall, this Rogue is holding back a lot of points. I know for my own version I bumped his HD to a d8, so that would account for 8 of the 12 banked points over these 4 levels, and that might be too much in your system, though he still had quite a few points left over in mine even after that change. Hmmm....

Thanks!

DrSpunj

ouini · Apr 29, 2004

DrSpunj said:
[The free 1st level feat]'s in addition to the General 1st-level feat that every PC gets, right?

[/quote]No, I was thinking that was the feat all PCs get at first level. No limitations as a feat (it can be either fighter or non-fighter), but it is a feat, and not a class ability.

Looking at my scribbles, I notice I said at 1st level, "4 points gains you an ability in an ability chain."
I think I meant to say, "4 points for each ability in one ability chain, 8 points for each ability in a second chain."

As for ...a Fort Save prereq for DR, I agree I'd prefer not to use save bases as prereqs for old class-ability chains if possible.

DrSpunj said:
...why is Evasion the beginning of a Non-Fighting Ability chain?

Well, I don't think of evasion as a fighting chain (I think of fighting chains like fighter's feats -- they're made to be more useful in melee than against traps or in magic-fights), but I guess it certainly could be. I don't see Evasion and Uncanny Dodge being in one ability chain. Evasion was at the beginning of the Monk non-fighting chain because, well, that's the order of non-fighting feats the Monk gets in the PHB. But this is all fairly arbitrary and very malleable at this point, and really probably wouldn't work out for Monks at all at this point, which is fine by me -- what a screwy class. I don't even know that I'd try to plot out the esoteric Monk just so as it is in the PHB.

DrSpunj said:
When you say "fighter's feat", do you mean only those feats that appear on the Fighter's Bonus feat list?

Yes.

DrSpunj said:
And I'm working on the Rogue...he seems to get the worst end of these costs. ...a Barbarian gets away with 4 points for an extra Rage/day every 3 levels.

Right, just like in core. That is, if you think a Barbarian and Rogue are fairly balanced in core, then this system does all right. Slowing down a Rogue's S.A. progression to once every three levels would, logically, allow him to do something else with those points he saves.

The reason I listed a highly granular system first, then explained you could cut costs in half, is because I'm a fan not only of K*I*S*S, but of YMMV. Different people have different tastes.

A Rogue then, depending on how weapons are classified (thanks for doing math for me

) would look something like:

Level 1
Hit Points: 6 (4 free, +2 pts)
BAB: +0 (+.5 free, +0 pts)
SPs: (8+IntMod)x4 (+2 free, +6 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +0/+2/+0 (+2 free, +0 pts)
W/A Profs: Simple Weapons, Swords & Bows; Light Armor (Basic Weapons free, +2 pts for Simple Weapons, +2 pts for Swords, +2 pts for Bows, +2 pts for Light Armor; +8 pts total)
Feats: One Freebie, Trapfinding (free; +4 pts for Trapfinding Ability chain - +8 pts for Sneak Attack +1d6; +12 pts total)

Total points = 28 pts, 2 "banked"

Level 2
Hit Points: d6 (d4 free, +2 pts)
BAB: +1 (+.5 free, +0 pts)
SPs: (8+IntMod) (+2 free, +6 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +0/+3/+0 (+1 free, +0 pts)
Feats: Evasion (+4 pts for Non-Fighting Ability chain; +4 pts total)

Total points = 12, 8 "banked"

Level 3
Hit Points: d6 (d4 free, +2 pts)
BAB: +2 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (8+IntMod) (+2 free, +6 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +1/+3/+1 (+1 free, +1 for 2 pts, +2 pts total)
Feats: Sneak Attack (+6 pts for Fighting Ability chain 2 levels later; +6 pts total)

Total points = 20, 6 "banked"

Level 4
Hit Points: d6 (d4 free, +2 pts)
BAB: +3 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (8+IntMod) (+2 free, +6 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +1/+4/+1 (+1 free, +0 pts)
Feats: Uncanny Dodge (Dex) (+8 pts for Fighting Ability chain; +8 pts total)

Total points = 20, 4 "banked"

...Though realistically, it's foolish to bank any points at 1st level. It makes much more sense at any other level.

DrSpunj · Apr 30, 2004

ouini said:
No, I was thinking that was the feat all PCs get at first level. No limitations as a feat (it can be either fighter or non-fighter), but it is a feat, and not a class ability.

Ah. Then I think you need to remove the line. All characters also get feats at 3rd, 6th, etc. but you don't talk about those, nor do you mention anything about the free Ability point increase all characters get every 4th level. Listing "Gain 1 feat" is very deceiving in this regard.

ouini said:
Looking at my scribbles, I notice I said at 1st level, "4 points gains you an ability in an ability chain."
I think I meant to say, "4 points for each ability in one ability chain, 8 points for each ability in a second chain."

Okay, just to make this easy/clean, would you mind editing your post up above to clarify this point and remove the "Gain 1 feat" thing?

ouini said:
As for ...a Fort Save prereq for DR, I agree I'd prefer not to use save bases as prereqs for old class-ability chains if possible.

Well, I'll admit it might be a bit cleaner, but sometimes it just fits. Reflex saves are used to move out of the way of sudden effects. Making it a prereq for something like Evasion or Uncanny Dodge makes good sense to me. Same thing with Fort saves (how well can you shrug off or resist physical effects) and DR.

ouini said:
Well, I don't think of evasion as a fighting chain ... but I guess it certainly could be. I don't see Evasion and Uncanny Dodge being in one ability chain.

Alright, and I agree (they should be separate chains). I'm still coming from a POV that combat-oriented abilities generally get more mileage than non-combat abilities. I realize that's somewhat campaign specific, but as I said earlier, D&D is a more combat-oriented system than some others out there. From that standpoint, Evasion just seems like it would be a Fighting-Ability chain to me.

ouini said:
Right, just like in core. That is, if you think a Barbarian and Rogue are fairly balanced in core, then this system does all right. Slowing down a Rogue's S.A. progression to once every three levels would, logically, allow him to do something else with those points he saves.

Well, they're reasonably close.

I'll figure out a Barbarian for the first four levels to compare and we'll see how that stacks up against the Rogue you outlined.

ouini said:
Level 4
Feats: Uncanny Dodge (Dex) (+8 pts for Fighting Ability chain; +8 pts total)
Total points = 20, 4 "banked"

Realize that you didn't pay for any extra Reflex save yet to balance out the loss of Trap Sense +1 at 4th level for a Core Rogue (and that ability also improves AC from traps). Point being you'd probably spend 2 of those 4 banked points back at level 3 to buy all three saves up by +1 if you aren't going to have a Trap Sense ability. OTOH, if you do make it it's own ability, you just spent those 4 points on it!

ouini said:
...Though realistically, it's foolish to bank any points at 1st level. It makes much more sense at any other level.

Right. I noticed that with my system as well. Only in a few case was it worth it and that was generally so you could get another ability nearly right away at level 2.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

DrSpunj · Apr 30, 2004

Okay, so here's my attempt at the first four levels of the Core Barbarian.

Level 1
Hit Points: 8 (4 free, +8 pts)
BAB: +1 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (4+IntMod)x4 (+2 free, +2 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +2/+0/+0 (+2 free, +0 pts)
W/A Profs: Simple Weapons, Axes & Bows; Light & Medium Armor & Shields (Basic Weapons free, +2 pts for Simple Weapons, +2 pts for Axes, +2 pts for Bows, +2 pts for Light Armor, +2 pts for Shields, +2 pts for Medium Armor; +12 pts total)
Feats: Fast Movement, Rage 1/day (+4 pts for Fast Movement Ability chain, +8 pts for Rage Ability chain; +12 pts total)

Total points = 38 pts, 8 "under"

Notes: Oops. This didn't work out too well. Since you can't really afford Medium Armor at 1st level you can drop that. If you're going to use a Greataxe you're not going to be using a shield either, so that's maybe another 2 pts. You've still overspent by 4 pts and I'm not sure what I'd take away next. :heh:

Level 2
Hit Points: d12 (d4 free, +8 pts)
BAB: +2 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (4+IntMod) (+2 free, +2 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +3/+0/+0 (+1 free, +0 pts)
Feats: Uncanny Dodge (+8 pts for Fighting Ability chain; +8 pts total)

Total points = 22, 4 "under"

Notes: Okay, this isn't working out too well!

There's nothing to trim away here, no excess fat! I know we've gone around & around on this before, but I'm going to throw it out again:

If you're rolling your Hit Points randomly each level, a higher HD only gets you +1 HP on average. I personally would never spend +8 pts to get a d12 when 33% of the time I'm going to roll what I could have had for free (a 1, 2, 3 or 4). Have you thought about pricing each increase in HD as a single point? That is, d6, d8, d10 & d12 would cost 1, 2, 3 or 4 pts? That would help the Barbarian out here a lot, though I'm not sure what impact it would have on the classes.

Level 3
Hit Points: d12 (d4 free, +8 pts)
BAB: +2 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (4+IntMod) (+2 free, +2 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +3/+1/+1 (+1 free, +1 for 2 pts, +2 pts total)
Feats: None

Total points = 14, 4 "banked"

Notes: Well, since I'm not sure what you want to do with Trap Sense, I'm not sure what to put here. It's certainly not a combat ability, so I wouldn't classify it as a Fighting Ability chain. Therefore, if it was an ability chain it would only cost 4 pts and this level would work out just fine. OTOH, if you just want to bump your Reflex save directly you have to do it next level (or last level, but we don't have any extra pts there!) since Reflex was already bumped this level.

Level 4
Hit Points: d12 (d4 free, +8 pts)
BAB: +2 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (4+IntMod) (+2 free, +2 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +4/+1/+1 (+1 free, +0 pts)
Feats: Rage 2/day (+4 pts for a Fighting Ability chain 3 levels later, +4 pts total)

Total points = 18, 4 "banked"

Notes: Works out okay, but Trap Sense needs a ruling for you as to how you want it handled. You could simply push Reflex up by 1 here at 4th level and still have 2 pts banked.

Overall, I don't think the Core Barbarian is all that unbalanced, certainly pretty close to the Rogue, and I need help with the first 2 levels to make a playable Barbarian. As it is he's still 4 pts over at 1st level even after we've pigeon-holed all Barbs into Greataxe using, non-Shield & Medium Armor wearers. Bleah! :\

Help, ouini!

Thanks.

DrSpunj

DrSpunj · Apr 30, 2004

While I've got some time I thought I'd hammer out the Ranger, too.

Level 1
Hit Points: 8 (4 free, +4 pts)
BAB: +1 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (6+IntMod)x4 (+2 free, +4 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +2/+2/+0 (+2 free, +2 pts)
W/A Profs: Simple Weapons, Swords & Bows; Light Armor & Shields (Basic Weapons free, +2 pts for Simple Weapons, +2 pts for Swords, +2 pts for Bows, +2 pts for Light Armor, +2 pts for Shields; +10 pts total)
Feats: Track, Wild Empathy, Favored Enemy #1 (+4 pts for Track as a Non-Fighter feat, +4 pts for Wild Empathy Ability chain, +8 pts for Favored Enemy Ability chain; +16 pts total)

Total points = 40 pts, 10 "under"

Notes: Wow!

Any ideas?

Level 2
Hit Points: d8 (d4 free, +4 pts)
BAB: +2 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (6+IntMod) (+2 free, +4 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +3/+3/+0 (+1 free, +1 for 2 pts, +2 pts)
Feats: Combat Style (+8 pts for Fighting Ability chain; +8 pts total)

Total points = 22, 4 "under"

Notes: Not looking too good here either.

Level 3
Hit Points: d8 (d4 free, +4 pts)
BAB: +3 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (6+IntMod) (+2 free, +4 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +3/+3/+1 (+1 free, +0 pts)
Feats: Endurance (Non-Fighter feat for +4 pts)

Total points = 16, 2 "balanced"

Notes: This one works out, but Non-Fighting Feats are pretty few and far between across all the Core classes, so this is far more an exception rather than the rule.

Level 4
Hit Points: d8 (d4 free, +4 pts)
BAB: +4 (+.5 free, +.5 for +4 pts)
SPs: (6+IntMod) (+2 free, +4 pts)
F/R/W Saves: +4/+4/+1 (+1 free, +1 for 2 pts, +2 pts total)
Feats: Animal Companion (+4 pts for an Ability chain 3 levels later, +4 pts total)

Total points = 18, even

Notes: This level works out, almost. I realized it didn't matter whether you treated Animal Companion as part of Fighting or Non-Fighting Ability chain since it's 3 levels from Wild Empathy, so the cost is 4 pts either way. I said "almost" before because the Ranger is supposed to get his first 1st level spell at this level (assuming his Wisdom is at least 12) and he's got no points left to buy that.

Overall, I think the Ranger is on the high end of the classes. Not on par with the Cleric or Druid, but definitely up there. In my version I toned down his Fort save to Average (something not really doable in your system, but it's not an option in Core either) and his Combat Style altogether, but he ended up getting a lot more magic under the Half AU system than he does under Core. It's simple enough to trade some of that away for more feats if preferred.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

DrSpunj · Apr 30, 2004

Just so everyone's on the same page I thought I'd type up the UA Weapon Groups.

Axes: handaxe, battleaxe, greataxe, dwarven waraxe (2-handed use)
Basic: club, dagger, quarterstaff
Bows: shortbow, longbow, composite shortbow, composite longbow
Claw Weapons: punching dagger, spiked gauntlet
Crossbows: heavy Xbow, light Xbow, repeating heavy Xbow, repeating light Xbow
Druid Weapons: dart, scimitar, sickle, short spear, sling, spear
Flails & Chains: light flail, heavy flail
Heavy Blades: longsword, greatsword, falchion, scimitar, bastard sword (2-handed use)
Light Blades: punching dagger, rapier, short sword
Maces & Clubs: light mace, heavy mace, greatclub, sap, warmace (2-handed use)
Monk Weapons: kama, nunchaku, sai, shuriken, siangham
Picks & Hammers: light pick, heavy pick, light hammer, warhammer, scythe, maul (2-handed use)
Polearms: glaive, guisarme, halberd, ranseur
Slings & Thrown Weapons: dart, sling
Spears & Lances: javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, trident

Now, some of those groups look mighty weak, I know, but there are also two Exotic Weapon groups. They each have a prereq of BAB +1 and give you proficiency with any exotic weapons of the appropriate types as long as you have the base weapon group(s) already. If you take additional base weapon groups after taking the Exotic Weapon proficiency, you become proficient with both the base weapons in the new group and all exotic weapons of that group. Here they are:

Exotic Double Weapons:
Axes: orc double axe, dwarven urgrosh (must also have Weapon Group [spears & lances])
Flails & Chains: dire flail, gyrspike (must also have Weapon Group [heavy blades])
Heavy Blades: double scimitar, gyrspike (must also have Weapon Group [flails & chains]), two-handed sword
Maces & Clubs: double mace
Picks & Hammers double hammer, gnome hooked hammer
Spears & Lances: dwarven urgrosh (must also have Weapon Group [axes])

Exotic Weapons:
Axes: dwarven waraxe (1-handed use)
Bows: elven double bow, greatbow, composite greatbow
Claw Weapons: bladed gauntlet, claw bracer, panther claw, stump knife, tiger claws, ward cestus
Clubs & Maces: warmace (1-handed use), tonfa
Crossbows: great Xbow, hand Xbow
Druid Weapons: greatspear
Flails & Chains: chain-and-dagger, scourge, spiked chain, three-section staff, whip, whip-dagger
Heavy Blades: bastard sword (1-handed use), khopesh, mercurial longsword, mercurial greatsword
Light Blades: kukri, sapara, triple dagger, war fan
Monk Weapons: butterfly sword, tonfa
Picks & Hammers: dire pick, gnome battlepick, maul (1-handed use)
Polearms: heavy poleaxe
Slings & Thrown Weapons: bolas, chakram, gnome calculus, halfling skiprock, orc shotput, shuriken, throwing iron
Spears & Lances: duom, greatspear, harpoon, manti, spinning javelin

Thanks.

DrSpunj

SSquirrel · Apr 30, 2004

Good job guys! Jus tstarted a new job (Blooming Prairie in Iowa City) so I'm workin 12+ hr days and have no time to play with the spreadsheet, but I'm enjoying the read.

Before Spunj started in on the first few levels of different core classes you guys seemed to be worrying about making sure barbarians would only be able to take barbarian style evasnion skills...uhm...that's counter to what this is trying for. Once the system is hammered into place, you'll be able to have someone make a barbarian under core rules, but that woll mean they CHOOSE to pick up Barbarian style evasion. Otherwise, you'd see them pick up better evasion which isn't hurting anything..it just shows taht maybe this barbarian is more agile than otehrs.

Also, there is NOTHING wrong with requirements for some of these class abilities cum feats. I know when I made Evasion a feat I gave it a dex req.

Hagen

ouini · Apr 30, 2004

Rangers? Blech.

I admit I don't have a great grasp of the new vs. old Rangers, except that the old core Rangers are terribly front-loaded, and I wouldn't expect them to work in any point-system which approaches linear or level-for-level balanced. In fact, I'd be very worried if I had a system in which core Fighters and Rangers, or Rogues and Rangers, turned out to cost the same at first level.

RE: Barbarians
I don't know if I think of Fast Movement as part of an ability chain or not. What is it chained to? The most obvious answer is "Rage", as it was obviously made part of the Barbarian class because Rage doesn't do you any good unless you can get to your enemy quickly.

For some reason I got the impression it was already a feat? If so, a non-fighter feat is four points, and 1st level Barbarians still come in as way too expensive (eight points over).

But okay. If Fast Movement is part of an ability chain, then it's even worse, and there's some rework to do. Over several levels, Barbarian cost drops down below that of Rogues, but in the early levels, they're costly.

What it comes down to, I think, is two things. Core seems fine with giving low-level classes a passel of highly-related abilities, so long as:
1 - none of them are unbalancing, and
2 - later on, the class suffers a good dry spell of abilities. (That's actually one of the things I don't like about playing classes -- there are many levels in a row where it's boring to advance a high level Paladin, or Ranger, or Barbarian, or even Rogue unless you're heavily into avoiding traps.)

What to do? Well, some options might be:
- somehow *borrowing* points from your later levels (very core-like, but BLECH!)
- lowering the cost of co-requisite skills at low levels (not *pre*requisite).

I'll think about it.

DrSpunj · Apr 30, 2004

ouini said:
I admit I don't have a great grasp of the new vs. old Rangers, except that the old core Rangers are terribly front-loaded, and I wouldn't expect them to work in any point-system which approaches linear or level-for-level balanced. In fact, I'd be very worried if I had a system in which core Fighters and Rangers, or Rogues and Rangers, turned out to cost the same at first level.

Well, then you've just admitted that you feel Fighters & Rogues are less powerful than Rangers.

Either way, the new Ranger's much better. Not front-loaded and the Favored Enemy mechanic works a lot better. Go here and check out the 3.5 Ranger if you haven't already done so. If you remember how we tried to revamp the Favored Enemy mechanic, you'll see pretty quickly that 3.5 does essentially the same thing we came up with!

ouini said:
RE: Barbarians
I don't know if I think of Fast Movement as part of an ability chain or not. What is it chained to? The most obvious answer is "Rage", as it was obviously made part of the Barbarian class because Rage doesn't do you any good unless you can get to your enemy quickly.
<snip>
But okay. If Fast Movement is part of an ability chain, then it's even worse, and there's some rework to do. Over several levels, Barbarian cost drops down below that of Rogues, but in the early levels, they're costly.

I'm thinking more globally than that, looking at the whole system. You're right that there is a feat called Dash that gives you +5' in no or light armor and not encumbered, but I don't know of a feat that gives you +10'. We went around on some of this back when we were working on the old system.

Regardless, I was treating Fast Movement as the start of an Ability chain (and I'd say Fighter more than Non-Fighter given how useful movement is in combat) which the Monk gets more use from over the course of 20 levels. So the Ability chain is identical for both, but the Barbarian only takes the first feat, while the Monk keeps pushing it to get to those supernatural speeds. I wouldn't tie it to Rage because there are lots of other non-Core base classes and many Prestige Classes that offer Rage-like abilities without increased speed, and vice versa.

ouini said:
What it comes down to, I think, is two things. Core seems fine with giving low-level classes a passel of highly-related abilities, so long as:
1 - none of them are unbalancing, and
2 - later on, the class suffers a good dry spell of abilities. (That's actually one of the things I don't like about playing classes -- there are many levels in a row where it's boring to advance a high level Paladin, or Ranger, or Barbarian, or even Rogue unless you're heavily into avoiding traps.)

Right, and while I have no problem with #1, I loathe #2. I admit that a few times in my spreadsheets I had to occasionally push an ability that Core gave at one level back a level or two, because the points just didn't work out. This occurred at 1st level and occasionally at other levels. Once I was done rearranging everything that Core said that class should have, I looked to see if I had enough points left over to hand out some bonus feats to avoid "dead levels". Thankfully, that never happened, IMO, to classes that I already felt were already too powerful and didn't need the bump in power.

ouini said:
I'll think about it.

I'll be interested to see what you come up with.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

ouini · Apr 30, 2004

Yes, up front, Fighters & Rogues *are* less powerful than Rangers. Eventually though, I believe they even out. (I took a look at the new one ... you're right, The new Ranger's better.) Rogues, though, will always be less or more powerful than other classes depending on how skill vs. combat oriented the campaign is.

But if Fast Movement is a feat, I personally won't classify it as a *fighter* feat unless it's on the fighter's list. Otherwise, the classifications shouldn't be "fighter" or "non-fighter", but simply "very useful" or "sometimes handy".

If F.M. is the start of an ability-chain, though, it sounds like you'd put it at the head of a Monk-like bigger'n'bigger movement bonus path. And sure, that seems to work.

RE: Core gives low-level classes many related abilities if none are unbalancing and later on, the class suffers a good dry spell.

DrSpunj" said:
... a few times in my spreadsheets I had to occasionally push an ability that Core gave at one level back a level or two ... This occurred at 1st level and ...

Well, I don't have a problem with doing that, either. But I will look to see whether there's some elegant, or at least fairly simple, solution to allow offering related chain-abilities at low level, within the point system. I'm thinking there is, but outside of seperate ability-chains which are de facto "related" because they're offered together in a core class, it would involve judgment calls by the GM.

DrSpunj's Class Balance Spreadsheet

DrSpunj

Explorer

ouini

First Post

DrSpunj

Explorer

DrSpunj

Explorer

DrSpunj

Explorer

DrSpunj

Explorer

SSquirrel

Explorer

ouini

First Post

DrSpunj

Explorer

ouini

First Post

Similar Threads