Your take on "Surface Thoughts" ie detect thoughts

questionmark · Apr 18, 2004

I was wondering what you all think Surface thoughts means in the detect thoughts spell? This spell is going to see alot of use in our game (a doppelganger pc) and we all are not sure what Surface thoughts are or are not.

We are kind of thinking that

1. if a bad guy wants to hurt us. the doppelganger would know the bad guys intent but not how he plans to carry it out.

or

2. He detects intent and clues like something bad will happen to us when e cross the town bridge.

please help!

Starglim · Apr 18, 2004

Surface thoughts are the words that you hear, or images that you see in your head as things happen around you.

If a target looks at a cat, his surface thoughts might be "cat", or maybe "disgusting vermin, want to wring its neck" which would tell the doppelganger something about the target's motivations and possible actions (he might decide not to act on his impulse). If a target is planning to do something to you, his surface thoughts might be "wait till he turns his back", or "look casual, stay cool", or "cat" if he happened to look at a cat a second after he decided on his plan to murder you. They are immediate, changeable and closely related to circumstances.

The smart thing for a doppelganger to do is to ask the target a question, or otherwise present him with a stimulus that's relevant to what you want to know.

jgsugden · Apr 18, 2004

Another way to say the same thing, the term 'surface thoughts' generally refer to 'active' thoughts: the things that are currently being considered and noted by the brain. Beyond the current thought process of the victim, other things that may be conveyed by surface thoughts would be the emotions of the target and the physical sensations being felt by the victim.

As an example:

A doppelganger PC reads the mind of a homeless man (who failed his saving throw).

The DM informs the player of the doppelganger the following information: The homeless man is thinking about where he can find some more food. He is feeling the cold bite of the wind as it blows through his inadequate clothing. The man is incredibly depressed.

The DM does not tell the doppelganer's player that the man was once a rich nobleman because the homelss man was not thinking about it. He does not tell the player that the homeless man is in love with the waitress at the tavern down the street because the homeless man, although in love, was neither thinking of feeling emotions for the woman at that moment. The DM does not reveal that the man knows where an ancient artifact of evil is hidden because it is not currently on his mind.

If the doppelganger then approaches the man and says, "Say, didn't I see you with the Arc of Ultimate Evil last week?", then the man's surface thoughts will liekly flash to the Arc of Ultimate Evil's location (unless the man is prepared to resist mental intrusion - something highly unusual in most games).

Hypersmurf · Apr 18, 2004

jgsugden said:
If the doppelganger then approaches the man and says, "Say, didn't I see you with the Arc of Ultimate Evil last week?", then the man's surface thoughts will liekly flash to the Arc of Ultimate Evil's location (unless the man is prepared to resist mental intrusion - something highly unusual in most games).

Sometimes known as the "Blue Elephant Effect", or something equally implausible.

-Hyp.

Staffan · Apr 19, 2004

jgsugden said:
If the doppelganger then approaches the man and says, "Say, didn't I see you with the Arc of Ultimate Evil last week?", then the man's surface thoughts will liekly flash to the Arc of Ultimate Evil's location (unless the man is prepared to resist mental intrusion - something highly unusual in most games).

They do something like that in one Babylon 5 episode. A few of the main characters are going to make a deal with a rather shady fellow, and they have a licensed telepath monitoring the situation. The teep, however, won't go "digging" in the shady guy's mind - the law forbids that, and only allows her to read surface thoughts. So, she starts the discussion by telling him, "I'm only going to read your surface thoughts. So it's very important that you do not think about this thing. Oh, there it is."

blargney the second · Apr 19, 2004

questionmark said:
I was wondering what you all think Surface thoughts means in the detect thoughts spell?

I would suggest that the usefulness (ie information learned) of this spell is directly proportional to the Intelligence of the victim. Bigger brain = thinking more complicated surface thoughts, or something along those lines.

-blarg

questionmark · Apr 20, 2004

Thanks for the input these posts will help us out alot.

Ranes · Apr 20, 2004

blargney the second said:
I would suggest that the usefulness (ie information learned) of this spell is directly proportional to the Intelligence of the victim. Bigger brain = thinking more complicated surface thoughts, or something along those lines.

-blarg

I like that angle.

Target Int <=11 surface thought: "I'm going to kill that PC."

Target Int >11 surface thought: "I'm going to kill that PC with his own spoon."

I'll take it. Thank you.

allenw · Apr 20, 2004

Note that if someone makes their save against Detect Thoughts (at the third-round, read-surface-thoughts stage), they'll feel "a hostile mental force or tingle," just like saving vs. any other spell with no obvious effect. If your Doppleganger is staring hard at them when this happens (though since Detect Thoughts is Supernatural rather than Spell-Like for Dopplergangers, it might not be as obvious), they're likely to get a bit suspicious.
In my campaign, I let NPCs (and PCs) who are trying to control their surface thoughts make a Concentration check as a standard action; if the result beats the DC of a Detect Thoughts cast on them, then only the thoughts they want to be read are read.