Katana wielding

John Q. Mayhem · Apr 25, 2004

I'm unsure as to the forum this should be in, so I'm putting it in General. I've seen in a couple places, notably the movie Equilibrium, a katana wielded in a strange way. The hilt is held so that, if your hand is held straight in front of you, horizontal, the blade projects out to you right. Basically, the sword is held upside-down. It seems like this wouldn't work; your reach would suffer greatly and you wouldn't be able to brace the blade with your thumb. A few tests with my bros and some sticks seems to bear this out, So, any real martial artists: does it work? I'm thinkin' no, but stranger things have happened.

Thanee · Apr 25, 2004

It works for shorter blades (knives up to the length of a short sword maybe), a katana isn't really one, that seems well-suited for this style.

You will obviously have more arm movement, whereas holding the sword pointing upwards, you can do a bit more with turning the wrists. Therefore a lower weight is also important besides the lower length, I think.

Bye
Thanee

nameless · Apr 25, 2004

I know next to nothing about kendo, but I could see that style having positive and negative aspects for a proficient student.

1. You can't brace the blade with your thumb, but if you bend your wrist, you can brace the blade with your entire forearm (assuming the tsuba isn't too large, and you don't screw up and turn the blade, cutting yourself).

2. It does greatly shorten your reach, but also improves leverage. It's possible to move the entire blade quickly in any direction when holding the sword upside-down, when a traditional grip has a fairly restricted range of combat-effective movement (because of either speed or recovery time).

3. A lot like #2, the combination of shoulder/elbow has more degrees of freedom in terms of where you can put the sword.

In practical terms, I see it kind of like fighting with a knife and a shield instead of a greatsword. You use a defensive advantage (you can block more shots instead of voiding them) to get in close enough that your weapon's greater speed and smaller profile works for you. It's definitely not an intuitive style, I'd definitely hold the sword right-side up if I were fighting for my life.

John Q. Mayhem · Apr 25, 2004

Yeah, I'm thinking a sword used like this would have to be short, like Thanee said. Probably used more like a tonfa, really. A tonfa-style hilt with a wakizashi-sized and shaped blade would a pretty trippin' cool.

Thanee · Apr 25, 2004

One advantage of this is, that you can carry and hide the sword behind your arm pretty good, btw.

I don't think, that it's so similar to using a tonfa, actually. The blocking, yes, but striking is completely different (cutting inwards instead of punching outwards).

Bye
Thanee

silentspace · Apr 25, 2004

Watch "Blind Swordsman"

Edit: Only because he fights that way all the time. There are so many examples given.

John Q. Mayhem · Apr 26, 2004

That's Zatoichi, right? I've not seen it or read any of the books (unsure if there are books), but I really, really like the MRL sword called the zatoichi sword. It's like a slim katana hidden in a short staff.

Dogbrain · Apr 26, 2004

Short answer: It won't work.

Longer answer: If somebody practices some dimwitted schtick enough, it can be made to "work", but not against somebody with real skill in using a weapon properly. It might "surprise" the utterly unskilled, but it's like the "advantage" had by a left-handed swordsman--much more smoke and mirrors than reality if ones opponent has any real skill (and I mean far less than true mastery).

barsoomcore · Apr 26, 2004

There's an iaido form where the sword is drawn from the saya using that grip so that the right hand ends up outside the right shoulder, the blade (edge up) extending forward. This form is referenced in Darrell Craig's Iaido and is attributed as saya-ushiro of the Mu-Gai Ryu-Hyu Do. I have not seen it performed nor am I sure of Mr. Craig's knowledge. It's a fun form to practice, however.

In about fourteen years of studying the use of the katana I have never seen such a grip used.

That said, I thought Equilibrium featured a whole slew of GREAT fight scenes (including that one). I don't mind if usage does not conform to what I know about swordfighting -- which is, after all, very little. I like to see creative choreography, solid performances (most bad fight scenes devolve from bad actors) and a real sense of tension -- which Equilibrium delivers in spades.

The final fight is just awesome. Beautiful stuff.

But no, I would guess that grip with a katana is not very useful.

Bendris Noulg · Apr 26, 2004

I always figured it was a defensive-fighting style; Catch and slide your opponent's blade to the left while opening your opponent to a slashing attack from the left, turning the return-motion of your block into an offensive strike.

Not that I know a damn thing about katanas, but that was always my guess.