Help me build a versatile Sorcerer

Liquidsabre · May 1, 2004

Some recommendations

10th lvl Sorc

Spells:
1st - Color Spray (stun those nasty big Ol' creatures as your party hacks them to death do not under estimate it's power!), Magic Missle, Protection from Evil (counter mind-effects & protected from summoned creatures), Shield, Shocking Grasp.

2nd - Acid Arrow, Alter Self, Hideous Laughter, Spider Climb

3rd - Daylight, Haste, Scintillating Sphere

4th - Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility

5th - Firebrand

Pax · May 1, 2004

Liquid - swap out one of those 3d level spells (I suggest Haste, the 3.5 haste is no longer as neccessary for a sorceror, by FAR) ... and get Nondetection. Nondetection will protect you form any See Invisibility spells going, when you're under cloak of Greater Invisibility.

Nondetection, Greater Invisibility, and Ghostform (5th level transmutation in Tome and Blood), are the "Triumvirate of Undetectability". Scent can't find you (incorporeal beings have no scent), blindsight can't find you (incorporeal creatures haveno physical body, make no sound, disturb no airflows, etc, etc), sight can't find you (greater invisibility see's to that), and even see invisibility can't touch you (nondetection takes care of that). Well, not without a caster level check, anyway.

Thanee · May 1, 2004

Pax said:
... and I've just figured out your misunderstanding, Thanee - the PHB gives a page number, so you thought that list was IT.

I don't know how this can be misunderstood, but...

...a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the sorcerer/wizard spell list in this book)...

What do you think, is the point of this rule, if it wouldn't apply to any sorcerer/wizard spells? Can sorcerer learn cleric spells? Surely not (altho, that would be kinda cool, of course)!

Pax said:
What you have to keep in mind is that books like Tome and Blood or Magic of Faerun add to that very table. The Sorceror/Wizard spells on them are supposed tobe treated as if they were ON the PHB tables.

And you can surely quote a text, that says, that it is considered to be on the table in the book (PHB), not just on the sorcerer/wizard spell list, right?

Bye
Thanee

P.S. This has always been like this... 3.0... 3.5... no change to the rule.

Thanee · May 1, 2004

Liquidsabre said:
Study of the spell is only necessary for uncommon spells, all common spells (Sorc/Wiz spell list in PHB or for settings such as FR, all spells in the FR books, though this is up to your DM) require no study or examples of.

Yep, the DM could rule the FR list as common, of course, but by the text of the rule, it is not by default. Only spells in the PHB are common.

Bye
Thanee

Thanee · May 1, 2004

Anyways...

Here's a complete spell list, how I'd probably make it:

8th level (8/5/3/2/1)

0th - Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation, Detect Poison;
1st - Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Charm Person;
2nd - Scorching Ray, Blindsight, Invisibility;
3rd - Lightning Bolt, Dispel Magic;
4th - Polymorph.

Feats:
Silent Spell
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration

10th level (+1/-/+1/+1/+1/+1)

0th - Open/Close;
2nd - Command Undead;
3rd - Suggestion, Slow; (swap out Lightning Bolt)
4th - Dimension Door;
5th - Firebrand.

Feats:
Energy Substitution (Sonic)

Bye
Thanee

Pax · May 1, 2004

Thanee said:
I don't know how this can be misunderstood, but...

I'ts really, really, REALLY[/u] simple, Thanee: the PHB was published FIRST, and it's wording assumes you have nothing BUT the player's handbook.

However, products which come out later can modify what is in the PHB. To insist that Sorcerors - and ONLY orcerors - need an example of any spell outside the PHB, is beyond stupid. I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but (a) it's far earlier than I'm accustomed to being awake ... and (b) I'm absolutely flabbergasted that you would conceive of such a ... well ... stupid thing! Some things just cannot be sugar-coated.

What do you think, is the point of this rule, if it wouldn't apply to any sorcerer/wizard spells? Can sorcerer learn cleric spells? Surely not (altho, that would be kinda cool, of course)!

Click to expand...

Bob the PC Sorceror, and his fellow party members, have just dispatched the Arch-Lich BBEG (a wizard, naturally) ... and LO! and behold, Bob has just found the Arch-Lich's spellbook (one of them, anyway). Within it's pages are detailed three spells never before seen in all the world. Bob, now, can LEARN those spells ...'cause he has examples in front of him, in the form of that book.

And you can surely quote a text, that says, that it is considered to be on the table in the book (PHB), not just on the sorcerer/wizard spell list, right?

Click to expand...

Yeah - the rule of common sense. If you liumit the sorceror, and only the sorceror, in access to non-PHB spells ... you are being grossly unfair to the sorceror. And in the process, you are damaging game balance.

The difficulty in finding such a rule is, the designers never thougt anyone would fail to comprehend that - just as with feats, magic items, or prestige classes - suplement books do just that, supplement the material presented in the various core rulebooks.

The spells in, say Draconomicon supplement those in the PHB. That means, they are added to the PHB spells and lists thereof.

So, I will again refer you to the SRD version of that text:

SRD said:

A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Click to expand...

Find for me where the SRD says that only SRD spells, or only PHB spells, or only ANY source spells are allowed.

P.S. This has always been like this... 3.0... 3.5... no change to the rule.

Click to expand...

Bzzzt, wrong. In 3.0, the sorceror could learn unusual arcane spells, not just unusual sor/wiz spells; under 3.0 rules, given a Bard scroll of CureLight Wound, it was technically legal for the Sorceror to LEARN that spell.

Thanee said:

Yep, the DM could rule the FR list as common, of course, but by the text of the rule, it is not by default. Only spells in the PHB are common.

Click to expand...

Bzzzt, wrong again.

FRCS page 61 said:

The spells and domains described form the common knowledge of Faerun's bards, clerics, druids, pldins, rangers, sorcerors, and wizards. Any character may acquire these spells in the usual fashion. The domains and spells described herein represent the secrets and special knowledge available to certain groups and individuals, plus a few faerunian spells that have become common parlance among the land's spellcasters

Click to expand...

No effort is made, however, to denote WHICH of the spells are "common parlance". That is because the assumptiuon is made that ALL spells attributed solely to a class list are commonly known.

However, that effort WAS made in the PGFR; a very small portion of the spells listed in that product (which includes ALL of Magic of Faerun's spells) are restricted to the new Initiate feats. All of them, by the way, for divine spellcasters, not Sorcerors.

Thanee · May 1, 2004

I'm sorry if that sounds rude...

More like silly...

You would have to go a very long way beyond that to actually offend me.

Bob the PC Sorceror, and his fellow party members, have just dispatched the Arch-Lich BBEG (a wizard, naturally) ... and LO! and behold, Bob has just found the Arch-Lich's spellbook (one of them, anyway). Within it's pages are detailed three spells never before seen in all the world. Bob, now, can LEARN those spells ...'cause he has examples in front of him, in the form of that book.

That's at least something reasonable to think about.

Bzzzt, wrong. In 3.0, the sorceror could learn unusual arcane spells, not just unusual sor/wiz spells; under 3.0 rules, given a Bard scroll of CureLight Wound, it was technically legal for the Sorceror to LEARN that spell.

This is just plain wrong.
Sorcerers could never learn any non-sorcerer/wizard spells.

You might find it unfair or rules lawyerish or anything else, but as written the rule is very clear to me. And I don't know of any rule, that negates it.

And I don't really see what is so unfair about it. Wizards need a source for every spell they learn beyond those during level up, too.

It's obvious, even with only the PHB printed, that there will be other books with spells in them done as well (the designers surely knew that as well).

The distinction and actually stating, that the list in the PHB is meant, leads me to the conclusion, that that is exactly the difference between a common and an uncommon sorcerer/wizard spell.

Altho, the FR stuff might work from what you quoted. While it doesn't really say so (just that those are common), that's good enough. But I would not count any spell found in any 3E book as common.

Bye
Thanee

Pax · May 1, 2004

Thanee said:
That's at least something reasonable to think about.

And that is the intent behind the poassage you've misinterpreted. It's for sorceror/wizard spells that are restricted access, not for sorceror/wizard spells that are not in the PHB.

Again - read the SRD version, and tell me where THAT says anything that supports what you're interpreting it to be, even once.

This is just plain wrong.
Sorcerers could never learn any non-sorcerer/wizard spells.

The wording in the 3.0 PHB said arcane spells, not surceror or wizard spells. *shrug*

You might find it unfair or rules lawyerish or anything else, but as written the rule is very clear to me. And I don't know of any rule, that negates it.

Yes, there is. The rule of "later-published products often change that which was published beforehand".

And I don't really see what is so unfair about it. Wizards need a source for every spell they learn beyond those during level up, too.

But that's just it - if wizards don't need an example of a non-PHB spell to get it added to the spells they know and can prepare "as part of level up" ... why can't sorcerors ... ?

Clerics, druids, and other divine casters get every spell available to them to select for preparation; why are sorcerors forced to pay money for a scroll, or the like?

Doing so places an unfair burden on the sorceror. Eitehr everyone should have to forkover the same sortof money, or noone should.

It's obvious, even with only the PHB printed, that there will be other books with spells in them done as well (the designers surely knew that as well).

Irrelevant, because it does not inevitably follow that any given player and/or GM will purchase those books.

The distinction and actually stating, that the list in the PHB is meant, leads me to the conclusion, that that is exactly the difference between a common and an uncommon sorcerer/wizard spell.

And that's an unbelievably over-literalist reading of the rules - because you are neglecting the inherent "this is an update to the PHB" nature of supplemental rulebooks.

Diirk · May 1, 2004

Pax said:
Clerics, druids, and other divine casters get every spell available to them to select for preparation; why are sorcerors forced to pay money for a scroll, or the like?

Doing so places an unfair burden on the sorceror. Eitehr everyone should have to forkover the same sortof money, or noone should.

Eh, sorcerors vs divine casters is apples and oranges. Better to compare to the wizard, and gee guess what, wizards need to pay for scrolls too ! gasp !

Sniktch · May 1, 2004

I think he's referring to the wizard's 2 free spells in the spellbook at each level up

Help me build a versatile Sorcerer

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