My Paladin killed a child molester (and now my DM wants to take away my powers!)

Paladin-like behaviour

Another thing...

First of all, the example of Arthur slaying the giants on the islands (someone posted this early on in the thread) would not fit here. Those creatures were of another species- i.e. monstrosities, abominations before the sight of God, or "sons of Cain" (to use a term from Beowulf). Despite the silliness concerning equal treatment for demihuman races in high magic/high fantasy campaigns like Forgotten Realms, the "correct" approach (I use that term loosely since "correct" is only what your DM says is correct in your particular campaign) would be to treat humans like humans and monsters (demihumans, goblinoids, fey, etc.) like insults to God worthy of extermination. In your case, you slew a child molesting human, but he was still a human. Gary Gygax's example of beheading a group of captured orcs is different; they deserve to be beheaded simply by virtue of their species.

The "proper" thing to do, I suppose, would be to loudly call out to the man in a clear and commanding voice that "in the name of [insert deity here], his holy church, and the local ruler, lord [blank], you are hereby apprehended for lecherous conduct and lustful depravity." If the rapist was too drunk or foolish to not resist, the paladin has one of two options he may take- 1) he either apprehends the suspect through unarmed or subduing combat or 2) he can deal a maiming and debilitating wound (removal of a hand, ear, etc.) to compel him to not resist. The paladin then drags him out into the public square, parading him for all to see (pants down and all) and loudly proclaiming what the criminal has done. Hopefully, on the way to the square, he will pass at least one night watchman or member of the local garrison to which he may address a request to speak with either the highest ranking noble in the area or ideally the local ruler (magistrate, castellar, whatever). At that point he hands him over, remembering to be respectful and pay homage to the rightful ruler to whom the criminal is handed to.

D+1 said:

As far as secular authority is concerned, maybe a paladin is not exempt, but maybe he is.

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It's worth pointing out that historically the church had ecclesiastical courts whose job it was to deal religious transgressors and matters of a spiritual nature. I imagine that any lawful church in D&D might have a similar system that took precedence over local secular courts.

Piratecat said:

It's worth pointing out that historically the church had ecclesiastical courts whose job it was to deal religious transgressors and matters of a spiritual nature. I imagine that any lawful church in D&D might have a similar system that took precedence over local secular courts.

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And in the case of the Holy Orders (like the Templars), many of them were answerable only to the Pope, meaning, I believe, that even regular ecclesiastical courts didn't have jurisdiction over them.

If I can add one other thing.

Would there have been any issue if the girl was able to kill the perp?

If no issue would have occurred with her killing the perp, then I really believe the Paladin did an honorable thig, by defending te weak, and providing justice for someone that was unable to deal it out.

Vae Victus said:

The "proper" thing to do, I suppose, would be to loudly call out to the man in a clear and commanding voice that "in the name of [insert deity here], his holy church, and the local ruler, lord [blank], you are hereby apprehended for lecherous conduct and lustful depravity." If the rapist was too drunk or foolish to not resist, the paladin has one of two options he may take- 1) he either apprehends the suspect through unarmed or subduing combat or 2) he can deal a maiming and debilitating wound (removal of a hand, ear, etc.) to compel him to not resist.

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This is the route I would take.

Striking down the man in the manner described in the original post wouldn't pass muster in my game. Here are just some of the reasons:

• The man could be possessed/charmed/dominated by an evil entity. In this case, if the paladin procedes as described, he's just been manipulated by evil to do evil's work! Congratulations, if you want to stay consistent, it's time for the paladin to familiarize himself with the concept of hari-kiri.
• Could be an illusion, with the same possible results as above.
• Most paladin codes call for honorable combat. In my games, the molester could be know to be guilty of a million slaughters, but strking him down unannounced from behind would result in the need for absolution. Not permanent loss of abilities or alignment change, just a temporary loss.

Feyd Rautha said:

Redemption is not the issue. Yes, a paladin should always strive to bring the stray members of the flock back into the fold, but if that fails then it is up to god to punish.

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The paladin is the instrument of that punishment. That's their JOB.


Wulf

Kid Charlemagne said:

This is the route I would take.

Striking down the man in the manner described in the original post wouldn't pass muster in my game. Here are just some of the reasons:

• The man could be possessed/charmed/dominated by an evil entity. In this case, if the paladin procedes as described, he's just been manipulated by evil to do evil's work! Congratulations, if you want to stay consistent, it's time for the paladin to familiarize himself with the concept of hari-kiri.
• Could be an illusion, with the same possible results as above.

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These are both good ways to completely hamper any paladin in any game by neutralizing his ability to do anything but show angst. It's too easy for a DM to come up with impossibly difficult situations like these to hold the paladin accountable for them all. Good intentions have to count for something even if the road to hell is supposedly paved with them. It's not entirely fair to hold PCs accountable for information they didn't have and, possibly, couldn't have at the time in all situations.
Based on this impression, I'd consider you probably as a DM who makes playing a paladin impossible. Your regular campaign may be different, but by coming up with examples like this (and I'm not sure how striking down an illusion could incorporate commiting evil since nothing would have been killed by it in this circumstance) you're telling me that you make life impossible for paladins to do anything decisive.

That does not mean he should like it. It may have to be done for the greater good, still it's not an easy burden ...

Guess why I scarcely play paladins?

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No offense meant by this, Darklone, but I can understand why you don't -- that's a VERY high standard to set, and I would say impossible to live up to.

Would you say, Darklone, that a paladin in a Realms campaign that you ran could expect to turn over a molester, and see justice done? Would be he strung by the yardarm, or at least jailed?

I don't see Paladins as 1950's versions of Superman - apprehend the evildoer and trust that the courts will always see justice through - nor are they Modern-Day policemen, whose primary responsibility is enforcing the law regardless of whether the common good is served.

A Paladin by PH definition is a ROVING arbiter of justice, hence the "punish evildoers" statement in the PH. a Judge is someone who metes punishment for a crime, and by saying the paladin punishes, he is by nature set up as judge.

Would this be a power we gave a modern human being? HECK, NO! Not by himself, at least. But a paladin is a different case, because he is a DIRECT representative (same as the will) of his god, just as a cleric is. He has the right and wrong of it, because he not only has the deity's teachings to fall back on, he has the deity's influence to fall back on.

Now, it's one thing if a DM warns you, "this does fly directly in the face of your god's teachings," but another if the DM makes it a guessing game as to the correct action. In this case, there is a direct precedent of Paladins in the Realms acting as both judge and executioner (no need for a jury, this is god's wills we're talking about here) in difficult circumstances.

Would it have been better for the paladin to find the circumstances first? Possibly; but it also would have been just as evil to let the courts dispense justice (which in cases of sexual assault were not as severe a crime as some seem to think, especially against a commoner), and then have the man exact retribution on a helpless target.

As I said before, depending on which god this is, the outcome would have not only been "not wrong," but celebrated. Tyr doesn't suffer fools for paladins, and he also doesn't suffer people making fun of his servants; they have a hard enough job trying to stop all the rampant evil in the realms AS IT IS.

This reminds me of a game I GMed a while back...

The player had a paladin, quiet and logical kind, with a firm belief in following her gods voice. In fact, she only listened to her god's voice. If it wasn't in the writings, she would consider it for about a minute, then use the closest thing she could find that worked best in the long-term.

I sent a priest with her to hear confessions and generally keep her reigned in.

She was one of the most frightening beings I have ever game-mastered.

She walked into a lords chamber one, put a sword to his neck, and said, "You will sign and swear for peace with your enemies now, else you will make peace with your gods. And may they be merciful, for my mercy is a sharp sword for your neck if you choose wrong."

The priest heard her confessions every night, and advised her each day. Every so often, he would cough at her and give a 'warning' about something or the other.

It was such fun!

Paladins

Kid Charlemagne said:

This is the route I would take.

Striking down the man in the manner described in the original post wouldn't pass muster in my game. Here are just some of the reasons:

• The man could be possessed/charmed/dominated by an evil entity. In this case, if the paladin procedes as described, he's just been manipulated by evil to do evil's work! Congratulations, if you want to stay consistent, it's time for the paladin to familiarize himself with the concept of hari-kiri.
• Could be an illusion, with the same possible results as above.
• Most paladin codes call for honorable combat. In my games, the molester could be know to be guilty of a million slaughters, but strking him down unannounced from behind would result in the need for absolution. Not permanent loss of abilities or alignment change, just a temporary loss.

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Ok, Kid. Here's the problem. His Faerun is not your Faerun is not my Faerun. In my game I've rule zeroed that the charm spell doesn't automatically make you a friend it just gives you a high cha mod. Second, you can only be possessed if you allow it. ie. you have done many evil things and have walked down the path to possession. Domination only happens to the weak willed or in other words those who allow it to happen to them. See where the trouble lies between our thinking.

Also, except for the DMs poor skill (specifically telling the Paladin that it was 'just a commoner') the paladin wouldn't have known what he was facing. It could just as easily have been a one of those sexually deviant high level wizards that seem to populate Faerun like mad.

As for Vindicator, did your DM discuss the paladins code with you before you rolled up your character? The right thing for me to tell you is that your DM is right, because it's his Faerun. For me, you would have done alright in my game.

Son of Thunder