Variant Class - Bloodline Sorcerer (comments welcome)

Okay, so I was inspired by a few attempts to make the sorcerer a bit more interesting, and I loved the bloodlines ideas that were floating around, so I sat down, patched a few ideas together and got this *points to attached doc**

What do you say? It's meant to supplant the standard sorcerer in the Iron Kingdoms.
The ideas I "stole" come from Unearthed Arcana's bloodlines (the minor ones), the bonus spells from Dragon #311, the overchanneling rules are from Wheel of Time, the XP "Eschew Materials" rules are from Book of Eldritch Might 2, and the illustration is from Todd Lockwood's site.

All intended to be solely used in my own, private campaign.

Have you happened to see my 4-Threads long posts on an alternate Bloodline Sorcerer?
Part 4 begins at: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82388
This includes a link to the file.

Your ideas are interesting, but I found (in the above threads) that most people didnt like just a plain-old Spell-like ability at each level. It will be interesting to see what people say about this now. I also am not sure how I feel about the increased ability scores across the board.

One other thing is that most people didnt like the ideas of overcharging, etc. Granted most of the people active in those threads have seemed to vanish from the boards...

Not bad, but kinda complicated in my eyes. I do like the adaption of the overchanneling rules from Wheel of Time tho =).

I use a similar system, except sorcerers gain one bloodline level of their choice for free, gain that bloodline's gifts at 4,8,12,16, and 20. If they want an intermediate bloodline they only have to take 1 bloodline level, and if they want the major, they only have to take 2 bloodline levels.

Oh yes, I saw your threads, Khaalis...was one thing that inspired me to take a closer look at a sorcerer's bloodlines. And I have admired your work, truly I have. I just have to admit...it's too much for my personal taste. In a way, you have created a system that can take a whole chapter in any rulesbook about character classes. Incredible flavour at some points, though...just too much for my own personal tastes, no offense intended? It was what made me ponder though...I love the basic idea, hence my own try.
The overchanneling kinda came before me adding-on the bloodlines. I saw it on WoT and instantly snatched it for sorcerers.

mercucio, what exactly strikes you as complicated? Or is it a general feeling about the class as I cobbled it together?

I have to agree that the overchanneling seems a bit complex. I am not a big fan of "random" results to performing a standard class ability (but thats just me). I am also not a fan of having to roll twice to perform one action (Skill check and save DC).

I don't own WoT, so I assume these rules are straight from that source? I do know that much in the WoT setting is very different form standard D&D however. What I personally dont like is that it breaks the fundamental weakness of the sorcerer, allowing them to cast spells of a spell-level far beyond their capability. Not only does it alter the class' balance but it could break game balance as well.

Some specific questions:
* What if the sorcerer rolls a 1 on a skill check? What is the failure penalty?
* Bloodlines: What if you want to add additional Bloodlines? I can see this class running into the same issues as mine - dozens of possible bloodlines.
* Bloodline Gifts - Spells: The spell-like abilities that you grant are al 2nd level spells. In my sorcerer threads I was repeatedly told that a spell-like ability of that low a level was worthless at that high a level. Ifyou want to add this at this level I would suggest upping this to an appropriate 3rd level spell.
* Affinity: Personal note - I Hate this ability. Its one thing that really turned me off to the UA Bloodlines. In 90% of the cases this is a worthless ability that will likely never come into play for the PC, and it is especially not a 20th level power. However, YMMV, JHMO.


With all that said, IF you decide to go with somthing other than the WoT system, (something simpler and more streamline) some possible alternatives might be using variants of material from the Expanded Psionic Handbook such as the "Overchannel" feat or the Wilder "Wild Surge".

If you want a "cost" associated to the Overchannel...

OVERCHANNEL [PSIONIC]
You burn your life force to strengthen your powers.
Benefit: Increase manifester level by 1, but take 1d8 damage.
At 8th: Can increase manifester level by 2, but take 3d8 damage.
At 15th: Can increase manifester level by 3, but take 5d8 damage.

I would tone this down since increased Caster Level is less potent that increasing a Manifester Level as ML increases all the same level dependent aspects as CL but also allows more power points to be expended on the power. Thus I would alter it to.

OVERCHANNELING [METAMAGIC]
You burn your life force to strengthen your spells.
Benefit: Increase manifester level by 1, but take 1d6 damage.
At 8th: Can increase manifester level by 2, but take 3d6 damage.
At 15th: Can increase manifester level by 3, but take 5d6 damage.

The Wild Surge is much more forgiving but basically the same as Overchannel but cannot be stacked with Overchannel.

WILD SURGE (Su):
At 1st: Increase manifester level by 1, without added cost.
At 3rd: Can increase manifester level by 2, without added cost.
At 7th: Can increase manifester level by 3, without added cost.
At 11th: Can increase manifester level by 4, without added cost.
At 15th: Can increase manifester level by 5, without added cost.
At 19th: Can increase manifester level by 6, without added cost.

I think this would work fine for the sorcerer giving them a slight edge to balance their slower spell progression. They may not learn spells as quickly as wizards but they can cast them more powerfully.

Benefit:
At 1st: Increase caster level by 1.
At 3rd: Can increase caster level by 2.
At 7th: Can increase caster level by 3.
At 11th: Can increase caster level by 4.
At 15th: Can increase caster level by 5.
At 19th: Can increase caster level by 6.

Or you could even mix the two concepts...

Overcharge
At 1st: Increase caster level by 1, but take 1d4 damage.
At 3rd: Can increase caster level by 2, but take 2d4 damage.
At 7th: Can increase caster level by 3, but take 3d4 damage.
At 11th: Can increase caster level by 4, but take 4d4 damage.
At 15th: Can increase caster level by 5, but take 5d4 damage.
At 19th: Can increase caster level by 6, but take 6d4 damage.

Just some thoughts.

PS: Thanks for the compliments. The sorcerer I wrote was specifically to create something unique and different. The class itself is not complex or long at all. What gets "involved" is when you begin to write dozens of different lineages. Personally, if I had my way, I would re-write the Flavor Text of the sorcerer, but since its non-OGL thats not an option. In my personal opinion, the Wilder (Psi) is what the Sorcerer SHOULD have been as it is much closer in spirit to what a sorcerer is supposed to be.

Okay, let's get to your questions first

- Rolling a 1 on a skill check is, as far as I know, still no automatic failure, is it? At least it's not in 3E, though I must admit I'm intentionally slow on "updating" on 3.5E. As such, a 1 on a skill check gets interesting only if the sorcerer misses the TN for the action he tried. Then he has to roll a Fortitude save, but only then. So actually, you only need two rolls, one skill and one save, if you botched your skill roll.
- Adding additional bloodlines would make a GM run into the same issues every time with any bloodline-based sorcerer. It's a thing of "too many options creating too much work". The thing is, I used the "generic four" bloodlines you get in the Dragon article I mentioned, and matched the minor bloodlines from UA. Considering I plan to use it in my Iron Kingdoms campaign, and seeing as the Campaign Guide isn't out yet, I don't know if some are even viable, mainly the Outsider bloodlines. In the end, each GM will have to decide. But for building: Collect one spell each level that looks appropriate to the bloodline you have in mind, and check the UA for a minor bloodline that fits, or for the guidelines for creating new minor bloodlines for the "bloodlline gifts" of your choice.
- About the spell-like abilities...2nd too weak? Okay..wow..I thought people'd tell me 3rd is too much, as I pondered on using 3rd level spells. Okay, I'd actually rethink those in that light.
- Affinity..well, what can I say, me lazy-ass, or time-pinched. Simply copied them from UA. I have to admit, a +2 on Intimidate won't do much on a Dragon in the Iron Kingdoms...

In the end, I added the bloodline gifts more as flavour than as hardware...more "fluff" than "crunch", to use modern gaming terminology. I will have to ponder on a few details, especially in the light of a given campaign setting...but that's a given, in my eyes, most of the time.

Your suggestions look nice, and more streamlined, too. I'd ponder on giving sorcerers something akin to Spellfire from the FR, if I had a better idea of how that works, but I always gathered from others that's terribly "unbalanced"..hmmm. The charm of the overchanneling rules is that you drive home the point that abusing your ability too much can burn you out. And if you play a sorcerer from 1st to 20th level, and used overchanneling a few times during your career, you probably hit the wall hard enough once or twice to make you very cautious of abusing it. One bad roll, and your abilities are gone forever

And, Khaallis...thanks again, and keep your comments coming, if you got any. Apparently you're the only one interested enough in really discussing a few things here with me.

Geron Raveneye said:

And, Khaallis...thanks again, and keep your comments coming, if you got any. Apparently you're the only one interested enough in really discussing a few things here with me.

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I too have noticed a sever lack of House Rule support of late. It was quite a shock going form 4 threads with hundreds of replies on my Sorcerer build to what the boards are currently producing. My subsequent Atan and Duelist threads received less than a dozen responses between the 2 threads. It appears that this board is on the decline, or all of the hard core house rulers have left.

- Rolling a 1 on a skill check is, as far as I know, still no automatic failure, is it? At least it's not in 3E, though I must admit I'm intentionally slow on "updating" on 3.5E. As such, a 1 on a skill check gets interesting only if the sorcerer misses the TN for the action he tried. Then he has to roll a Fortitude save, but only then. So actually, you only need two rolls, one skill and one save, if you botched your skill roll.

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I still use 1 as an automatic failure and 20 automatic success. It just adds that more cinematic ‘flair’ to the game. I guess my personal beef with the WoT system is that need to roll so much for one action. I prefer a more streamlined system for action such as casting. I don’t want to have to roll a skill check, then have to reference a table to see if I need to roll another die roll and then consult another table to see if I lose my magic, etc. Its too much like bad memories from I.C.E.-RoleMaster. What I ‘would’ do for the fun of it, is on a critical botch use a Wild Surge (but that’s just the evil DM side of me). For tis aspect – use what you feel works best for you. If you like the WoT system – by all means use it. You know what your players will abide.

- Adding additional bloodlines would make a GM run into the same issues every time with any bloodline-based sorcerer. It's a thing of "too many options creating too much work". The thing is, I used the "generic four" bloodlines you get in the Dragon article I mentioned, and matched the minor bloodlines from UA. Considering I plan to use it in my Iron Kingdoms campaign, and seeing as the Campaign Guide isn't out yet, I don't know if some are even viable, mainly the Outsider bloodlines. In the end, each GM will have to decide. But for building: Collect one spell each level that looks appropriate to the bloodline you have in mind, and check the UA for a minor bloodline that fits, or for the guidelines for creating new minor bloodlines for the "bloodlline gifts" of your choice.

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I don’t know anything about the Iron Kingoms so I cant answer much on that. I’m an FR/Homebrew fanboy. As for the UA Bloolines, I have to admit that it is the one section I was the most disappointed in. I really don’t like them. I don’t really like the mechanic for them, and I don’t like the way they are implemented. In 90% of the cases, the abilities gained are not worth the level expenditures. The other part that is broken, is that they are not even LA’s, and thus cant even be bought off with the rules presented in the UA for LA buyoff. JMHO but the thought on the unified build was nice, but the implementation of the abilities sucked.

- About the spell-like abilities...2nd too weak? Okay..wow..I thought people'd tell me 3rd is too much, as I pondered on using 3rd level spells. Okay, I'd actually rethink those in that light.

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I was told quite often in my threads that by the time a Sorcerer is 16th level, gaining a bonus 2nd level spell, even as a spell-like ability, is basically too weak to be any incentive. If it is purely for flavor that is one thing, but the problem inherent in the sorcerer is that it needs incentive to remain in the class past the first 5-9 levels (whereupon 90% of players MC into a PrC). If you only want the abilities as flavor that’s great, but if you want to add some ‘balance incentive’ to remain in the class post 10th level, I would change this to a 3rd level spell since most of the decent spells of the game are 3rd and 4th level.

- Affinity..well, what can I say, me lazy-ass, or time-pinched. Simply copied them from UA. I have to admit, a +2 on Intimidate won't do much on a Dragon in the Iron Kingdoms...
In the end, I added the bloodline gifts more as flavour than as hardware...more "fluff" than "crunch", to use modern gaming terminology. I will have to ponder on a few details, especially in the light of a given campaign setting...but that's a given, in my eyes, most of the time.

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That’s fine to use the basic build if it works for you. Again this falls to the question of flavor or incentive not to PrC out of the class. This is why in my version, the only thing we could agree on was the equivalent to the Monk’s “Perfect Self” – the transformation of ‘Type’. Anything else was too weak to be any incentive to remain in the class. Even with that ability however, I have found that in most cases the powers I have given the class STILL are not enough incentive to not PrC out of the class. When most PrC’s offer spell progression AND class abilities each level, the core class cannot equal that kind of gain. Even those players deeply attached to the bloodline tend to Drop after receiving the 1st and/or second bloodline gift (8th or 14th). So, again, this really has to be your choice for the feel of the class. However, I would say to take the Wilder into account for balance. The more I look at this class, the more it strikes me as being what the Sorcerer should have been, though the Sorcerer still has more flexibility in its magic than the Wilder has in psionics. I do however plan to use the model for another base 20 level spell-caster class soon.

Your suggestions look nice, and more streamlined, too. I'd ponder on giving sorcerers something akin to Spellfire from the FR, if I had a better idea of how that works, but I always gathered from others that's terribly "unbalanced"..hmmm. The charm of the overchanneling rules is that you drive home the point that abusing your ability too much can burn you out. And if you play a sorcerer from 1st to 20th level, and used overchanneling a few times during your career, you probably hit the wall hard enough once or twice to make you very cautious of abusing it. One bad roll, and your abilities are gone forever

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I don’t have the FR books handy but the Spellfire rules are potentially unbalanced if implemented wrong. It depends on how much control the DM puts on them. For example if you don’t give them a lot of opportunity to feed the fire, etc. However, the Spellfire Wielder really is a class unto itself and not something that should be applied to the Sorcerer. I thought about it too, the wielding of raw magic, but they really are two different concepts. The sorcerer is more akin to a Super Hero. They “develop” magical ‘powers’ that are innate. In fact my first version of the sorcerer actually changed the system from spells to Spell-Like Abilities, but many felt it was too powerful considering the lack of components.

Let me know what you decide to use, I will be interested to see it.

It'll take some time to gather in some real results about the class...I changed the spells to some appropriate 3rd level spells as bloodline gifts on 16th class level, by the way. My problem is that I only have one D&D group, we meet infrequently, and all players already have set characters in the 5th by now. But as soon as I get some results, maybe by using a sorcerer as adversary, I'll chime in again, or send you some kind of message.