Naeronite relationship with dragons/chromatic dragons
Northman
First Post
This came up in my game.
Naeron created the evil dragons and desires the death of all good dragons that oppose his children, so it appears that Naeron has a special place in his heart for the evil dragons, his creation. That's even the image he projects of himself, a dragon, right?
Naeron created the evil dragons and desires the death of all good dragons that oppose his children, so it appears that Naeron has a special place in his heart for the evil dragons, his creation. That's even the image he projects of himself, a dragon, right?
Northman
First Post
True.
This is a different issue, and not important at this moment, but I've never had a player play a cleric of Naeron, and I'm finding it very difficult to DM. Naeron is such a diverse god, I'm not sure how to use him. You can look at him several ways.
He's the god of knowledge, which might make his followers very logical and passive. He's the god of the underworld, which makes it seem that his followers may be dark and mysterious, perhaps cultish. He's also the god of evil dragons. Oh, so his followers would be powerful, brash, want to dominate, and evil to the core. Also, one of his domains is death, and he's a god of death according to his description, so maybe his followers are dark brooding grim reaper types going about honoring and worshiping death...
Will the real cleric of Nearon stand up?
Oh, and to top it off, he's neutral. Lawful neutral.
I can't wrap my brain around him. He's a dominator god. He wants to dominate... why isn't he evil?
I just think the author went a wee bit overboard in Naeron. Silverglass, it's your baby, right? Maybe a slight adjustment could be in store for the new setting guide. What do you think?
I think if you nudge him over to evil it would all make sense. He's the creator of the evil dragons, by God...
This is a different issue, and not important at this moment, but I've never had a player play a cleric of Naeron, and I'm finding it very difficult to DM. Naeron is such a diverse god, I'm not sure how to use him. You can look at him several ways.
He's the god of knowledge, which might make his followers very logical and passive. He's the god of the underworld, which makes it seem that his followers may be dark and mysterious, perhaps cultish. He's also the god of evil dragons. Oh, so his followers would be powerful, brash, want to dominate, and evil to the core. Also, one of his domains is death, and he's a god of death according to his description, so maybe his followers are dark brooding grim reaper types going about honoring and worshiping death...
Will the real cleric of Nearon stand up?
Oh, and to top it off, he's neutral. Lawful neutral.
I can't wrap my brain around him. He's a dominator god. He wants to dominate... why isn't he evil?
I just think the author went a wee bit overboard in Naeron. Silverglass, it's your baby, right?
Maybe a slight adjustment could be in store for the new setting guide. What do you think?I think if you nudge him over to evil it would all make sense. He's the creator of the evil dragons, by God...
Silverglass
Registered User
Well some of it arose from Khellendros' original description and some from how I wanted Naeron to embody the natural force of death and that is more LN than LE. Yes he is enigmatic but that is because he should be, he is death incarnated. Naeron as written has changed during time, this is planned as it reflects the state of the deific realm, during the violent age of the gods naeron was violent, during the more ordered age of kings naeron is more ordered. If this hints at a link between naeron and aerde then this is because there is one. The Underworld is a relection of aerde and Naeron is the embodiment of the Underworld (or vice versa, I'm not saying) so as Aerde changes Naeron changes (or maybe its vice versa).
If you want to be accurate Naeron is a Nature Deity who sits in the Dominator camp because his nature is that of the inevitable domination of Aerde at the apocalyptic time when all things die (and also the "evil" deities needed a boost). As Aerde was created so shall it be destroyed and created anew (damn, its the circle of life). Naeron thus works "against" the good deities as preservers but still against the other eveil deities.
But he does not work against these deities out of malice or of a desire to cause suffering, he does so because it is his nature to do so. He is aerdes "destroyer" of life just as their is a "creator" or life.
So he is a "dominator" because that is his nature, his purpose is to "dominate" all of Aerde so that the current age can end and a new age begin.
He has the death domain because he is the God of the Underworld and that is how the portfolio expresses itself, he does not specifically destroy life (so no destruction domain) but he IS the end of life (think egyptian Osiris, as Judge of the Dead, or the greek Hades rather than D&D priests of Nerull).
He is patient and clever, his priests seek knowledge and to advance the spread of the religion, death is something that happens to all beings (even the gods) and his priests teach acceptance of it as "the time will come" rather than wanting to actively spread it, so in this they differ from say the priests of Beher or Kirok.
The chromatic dragons are his children and and they worship him, however the nature of chromatic dragons is also wild and destructive as they were created in an earlier age to embody some of Naerons aspects and at the time he was more destructive and had the destruction domain (he later put it aside as it weakened him), hunger is part of their nature, so they retain their evil alignments. Dragons have free will so they choose their alignment, their feelings if superiority mean that they do not value human life for instance so that makes them D&D evil because they are the predator and the human is the prey. But chromatic dragons could be different and some will be, its just that their nature is inherently wild and destructive.
However chromatic dragons and the worshippers of Naeron should normally get on reasonably well, but it is on the basis of shared respect and the keeping out of each others territory. So Naeronites discourage attacks on dragons, unless the dragons are already threatening their comrades and vice versa.
As an example in the Province of Karnatka there is a forest that is home for a number of Green dragons, the Church of Naeron has established the ground rules for the forest, livestock is delivered to the edge of the forest for the dragons to hunt and the dragons do not hunt the local population (well not anyone who would be missed), but in return the local population are banned from entering the forest and anyone who does is fair game. This would be the general theme of naeronite/dragon relations, find an acceptable border and then keep to your side of that border.
His humanoid clerics would generally be logical, dark and mysterious and honour death. His draconic clerics would also be aggressive and dominating to non-naeronites, less so to naeronites.
If you want to be accurate Naeron is a Nature Deity who sits in the Dominator camp because his nature is that of the inevitable domination of Aerde at the apocalyptic time when all things die (and also the "evil" deities needed a boost). As Aerde was created so shall it be destroyed and created anew (damn, its the circle of life). Naeron thus works "against" the good deities as preservers but still against the other eveil deities.
But he does not work against these deities out of malice or of a desire to cause suffering, he does so because it is his nature to do so. He is aerdes "destroyer" of life just as their is a "creator" or life.
So he is a "dominator" because that is his nature, his purpose is to "dominate" all of Aerde so that the current age can end and a new age begin.
He has the death domain because he is the God of the Underworld and that is how the portfolio expresses itself, he does not specifically destroy life (so no destruction domain) but he IS the end of life (think egyptian Osiris, as Judge of the Dead, or the greek Hades rather than D&D priests of Nerull).
He is patient and clever, his priests seek knowledge and to advance the spread of the religion, death is something that happens to all beings (even the gods) and his priests teach acceptance of it as "the time will come" rather than wanting to actively spread it, so in this they differ from say the priests of Beher or Kirok.
The chromatic dragons are his children and and they worship him, however the nature of chromatic dragons is also wild and destructive as they were created in an earlier age to embody some of Naerons aspects and at the time he was more destructive and had the destruction domain (he later put it aside as it weakened him), hunger is part of their nature, so they retain their evil alignments. Dragons have free will so they choose their alignment, their feelings if superiority mean that they do not value human life for instance so that makes them D&D evil because they are the predator and the human is the prey. But chromatic dragons could be different and some will be, its just that their nature is inherently wild and destructive.
However chromatic dragons and the worshippers of Naeron should normally get on reasonably well, but it is on the basis of shared respect and the keeping out of each others territory. So Naeronites discourage attacks on dragons, unless the dragons are already threatening their comrades and vice versa.
As an example in the Province of Karnatka there is a forest that is home for a number of Green dragons, the Church of Naeron has established the ground rules for the forest, livestock is delivered to the edge of the forest for the dragons to hunt and the dragons do not hunt the local population (well not anyone who would be missed), but in return the local population are banned from entering the forest and anyone who does is fair game. This would be the general theme of naeronite/dragon relations, find an acceptable border and then keep to your side of that border.
His humanoid clerics would generally be logical, dark and mysterious and honour death. His draconic clerics would also be aggressive and dominating to non-naeronites, less so to naeronites.
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Northman
First Post
I guess I have a fundimental problem with a god creating a race of creatures that is not the same alignment. It seems... impossible. Why would a lawful neutral god who believes in his own personal code and is not tempted by good or evil, create a race of evil creatures. Evil doesn't just mean wild and destructive. It means as per D&D, "hurting, oppressing, and killing others." Why would Naeron create creatures like that when he is not? A god that would create evil creatures is by default evil himself. He can't have it both ways.
With the rest of his portfolio it just seems he would make more sense if he was evil. But I realize he is one of the few gods that has been expanded upon and material has been writen about, so a change would not be easy or without reprocussions.
I guess I have an underlining problem with some of the choices we made as CMs when this world was created. We got a little too whacky, thinking it would be a new diverse world, and I'm finding that some of it doesn't fit with standard D&D or sometimes just make a lot of sense.
I guess nothing needs to change. I'll deal with it. I just think there are several basic flaws with our world that are hard to explain. It's too late for some of them. Others are aspects hardly used and could be changed without too much problem.
Lately I've been discouraged with The 13 Kingdoms. I mention it here, because I've always been its cheerleader. I was there when this whole craziness started, I was there when there were two posts on the boards every three weeks. I was even there back when Living Web started and became a huge ball of beuracratic crap.
There are times when I'd like to start over with a specific direction, theme, and focus. I love the 13 Kingdoms, but sometimes it drives me crazy.
With the rest of his portfolio it just seems he would make more sense if he was evil. But I realize he is one of the few gods that has been expanded upon and material has been writen about, so a change would not be easy or without reprocussions.
I guess I have an underlining problem with some of the choices we made as CMs when this world was created. We got a little too whacky, thinking it would be a new diverse world, and I'm finding that some of it doesn't fit with standard D&D or sometimes just make a lot of sense.
I guess nothing needs to change. I'll deal with it. I just think there are several basic flaws with our world that are hard to explain. It's too late for some of them. Others are aspects hardly used and could be changed without too much problem.
Lately I've been discouraged with The 13 Kingdoms. I mention it here, because I've always been its cheerleader. I was there when this whole craziness started, I was there when there were two posts on the boards every three weeks. I was even there back when Living Web started and became a huge ball of beuracratic crap.
There are times when I'd like to start over with a specific direction, theme, and focus. I love the 13 Kingdoms, but sometimes it drives me crazy.
Emiricol
Registered User
Naeron originally was a Destroyer. He is one of the remaining old ones. He created evil dragons to help destroy the creations of the good gods. After the defeat, he decided he'd have to bide his time if he wanted to destroy creation and shatter the Veil of Madness, and thus has taken a more neutral course since then. He also realized that his destruction of so much was making Beher, not himself, stronger and so he gave that up.
Naeron isn't evil, exactly - he just wants to destroy creation and for about the last 1000 years or two he feels the best way to do that is to first control it.
As to the rest of it, can't say exactly.
Naeron isn't evil, exactly - he just wants to destroy creation and for about the last 1000 years or two he feels the best way to do that is to first control it.
As to the rest of it, can't say exactly.
Emiricol
Registered User
Perhaps the evil dragons give Naeron respect as their progenitor, but generally do not worship him in the classic sense, at least not as a race. Some dragons may, but these would be the ones who weren't necessarily evil, and they'd be the ones with cleric levels. Others who had cleric levels would just worship gods more in line with their alignments and goals.
Anyway, Naeron has worked with the forces of good at times too. Maybe his neutrality reflects that he'll use whatever means present themselves to shatter the Veil of Madness. Maybe he learned some lesson or other...
Anyway, as the guide is in revision I can't think of a better time to further define a complex god like Naeron than now, if indeed it is necessary to do so.
Anyway, Naeron has worked with the forces of good at times too. Maybe his neutrality reflects that he'll use whatever means present themselves to shatter the Veil of Madness. Maybe he learned some lesson or other...
Anyway, as the guide is in revision I can't think of a better time to further define a complex god like Naeron than now, if indeed it is necessary to do so.
Northman
First Post
What I'm saying is that the act of creating evil dragons IS evil. If you create a race of creatures and make them mass murderers, creating them is an evil act. You're creating evil creatures to do evil. That's evil.
I understand we're working within a whacky alignment system which serves almost no purpose except a couple of rules important roles, but even within the system, I don't understand how Naeron gets around that.
I understand we're working within a whacky alignment system which serves almost no purpose except a couple of rules important roles, but even within the system, I don't understand how Naeron gets around that.
