Two Weapon Fighting and Combat Expertise

pbd · Jul 13, 2004

I am wondering how two wepon fighting and combat expertise work together. For instance if I am fighting with two weapons and want to use combat experise do I penalize my attacks with both weapons in order to gain the AC bonus? or can I designate one weapon as the defensive weapon and attack as per normal two weapon fighting with the other? I nkow that a charcater can take two weapon defense and gain a small off hand shield bonus to AC, but can you use you off hand weapon as the defensive weapon for combat expertise?

Much thanks for all your help.

Raduin711 · Jul 13, 2004

pbd said:
I am wondering how two wepon fighting and combat expertise work together. For instance if I am fighting with two weapons and want to use combat experise do I penalize my attacks with both weapons in order to gain the AC bonus? or can I designate one weapon as the defensive weapon and attack as per normal two weapon fighting with the other? I nkow that a charcater can take two weapon defense and gain a small off hand shield bonus to AC, but can you use you off hand weapon as the defensive weapon for combat expertise?

Much thanks for all your help.

Combat Expertise asks for a decrease to BAB, and since both attacks are based on BAB, the decrease should be applied to both attacks.

Keep in mind that you can only take off as many points to your attack roll as you have BAB; so if your fighter has a bab of +1 and a strength bonus of +3, and you want to use combat exp, the most you could decrease from your attack roll is 1.

Darklone · Jul 13, 2004

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Sadly, it's not written as clearly as Power Attack, but it makes sense to apply it to all attack rolls in this rounds action. Otherwise, as written (and interpreted very badly), you might apply it to your last attack and enjoy the AC boost till next round.

sledged · Jul 13, 2004

However, a magical weapon with the defending property doesn't affect your attack bonus with other weapons, and the AC enhancement bonus stacks with everything including another defending weapon.

Shallown · Jul 13, 2004

Its not as clear as Power attack but it does say attack rolls I say it affects all rolls that round. Since it is part of a attack action or a full attack action it affects all the attacks. You can't choose just one attack of a full attack to affect.

BTW it doesn't penalize or subtract from BAB though it is limited by it.

Vrecknidj · Jul 13, 2004

How about a new feat?

Two-Weapon Parry
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: When fighting with two weapons, you may select one of your weapons as an offensive weapon and the other as a defensive weapon. In effect, you may apply your Combat Expertise dodge bonus to armor class from one of the two weapons and not have the associated attack penalty apply to the other weapon. Your offensive weapon's attacks drop by -2.
Note: With Two-Weapon Defense, your off-hand weapon grants you a shield bonus to your defense. When using Two-Weapon Parry, you gain a dodge bonus (see Combat Expertise), you do not gain the shield bonus (from Two-Weapon Defense). You may, of course, choose to use Two-Weapon Defense instead of Two-Weapon Parry on any given round.

Example: Drest wields two kukris with attack bonuses of +12/+7/+2 and +12/+7 (he has Improved Two-Weapon Fighting). He's going up against a monster that he's not sure he can adequately protect himself against. So, he chooses to drop his off-hand attacks to +7/+2 and boost his AC by +5. His primary weapon's attacks become +10/+5/+0.

If he gets an attack of opportunity after his turn this round but before his next turn next round, he uses the weapon he's using offensively (in the example case, +10) to make that attack of opportunity.

dcollins · Jul 13, 2004

Well, there's already "Off-Hand Parry" from Sword & Fist that lets you trade all off-hand attacks for a +2 dodge bonus to AC.

The Souljourner · Jul 14, 2004

Raduin711 said:
Combat Expertise asks for a decrease to BAB, and since both attacks are based on BAB, the decrease should be applied to both attacks.

Just a nit pick... combat expertise in no way decreases your base attack bonus. It is just a penalty to attack rolls which cannot exceed your base attack bonus. If it actually decreased your BAB, you would receive fewer attacks, stop being qualified for feats, etc etc... obviously not what was intended by the feat.

As for the original question - I'm sure the intention was for it to work just like power attack - before making an attack for a round, you may designate a penalty to hit which cannot exceed your BAB. Until the beginning of your next turn, you get a dodge bonus to AC equal to the penalty. This penalty to attacks affects all attacks until the beginning of your next turn.

To make it short - you get the penalty on both attacks, not just one hand. Think of it not as defending with one weapon, but an attack style that alters how you attack regardless of what you attack with.

-The Souljourner

Hypersmurf · Jul 14, 2004

The Souljourner said:
As for the original question - I'm sure the intention was for it to work just like power attack - before making an attack for a round, you may designate a penalty to hit which cannot exceed your BAB.

Well, you have to declare it when you take the Attack action or the Full Attack action in melee.

If you want to attack with both weapons, you have to take the Full Attack action.

"I take the Full Attack action in melee."
"Are you using Combat Expertise?"
"Yes, three points."
"Make some attack rolls, then."

-Hyp.