There is always someone bigger...

Has anyone here ever used the "There is always someone more powerful" theme in their game? Like the PCs destroy an enemy and then they find out he was merely a minion for another enemy. Then they go on another epic quest, and find out there is someone more pwerful than who they just killed. ALthough not related to him at all. Then when they kill the next enem there is yet another one who is more powerful than him. Who also happens to be the mastermind behind the whole thing.

Ya, this type of campaign can be very frustrating. "Finally, we killed the horrible villain. Now we're true heroes of legend and... okay, who the hell is that? What?! He has a big brother?!"

However, I did attempt a variant of this type, and it went rather well. The PCs knew in advance the identify of the campaign villain (the general of the occupying army, a 20th level baddie). The PCs worked against the occupying army (open assaults, sabotage, forging alliances with neutral parties, etc) encoutering the general's minions has they moved closer to the final encounter.

Unfortunately, the group broke up before the end. However, there was satisfaction amongst the players, who felt that the campaign held together nicely. Each new villain was logically tied to a defeated villain as well as the story. With each victory, the players knew they accomplished something while maintaining the integrity of the campaign. It also permitted the players to see the fruits of their labours: how each victory caused the general to redirect troops, open new fronts and strike out blindly in frustration. (The PCs gained a reasonably powerful mage as an ally, who allowed them to scry the general - they caught him cursing their names for all the trouble they were causing him. They liked that.)

If done properly, I think the style can work. If done properly.

Hey, it can get even worse than that. My brother GMed a five year campaign in which we were ALWAYS outclassed by the baddies, and the only way we ever came out on top was by being sneaky and lucky, or ganged up on one of them in favorable circumstances. But in a one-on-one fight? Fugedaboudit!

I think it would depend on the scale, as far as my personal tastes go. If the game went along the lines of a Dragonball Z season, I'd throw my dice, and the DM out the window.

"Man! We finally defeated Zixsplithathaflitz, who blasted huuuuge craters across the known world and killed each and every gold dragon!"

"Wait! Who's that guy?"

"I'M BUL-CRAPPOR THE OVERPOWERED! NOW WATCH ME EAT THE SUN FOR MY DAAAAAHK GAAHHHDS!!!"

*grabs the sun out of the sky* "MUNCH MUNCH MUNCH!!!"

*****many adventures later*****

"Whew! Never thought we'd beat BUL-CRAPPOR THE OVERPOWERED!"

"Wait, who are they?"

"WE ARE THE DAAAAAAHK GAAAAAAAHDS..........MASTERS (AND MISTRESS) OF BUL-CRAPPOR THE OVERPOWERED!"

Yeah. That kind of stuff (and I've had the bad luck of playing in games like that). I'd be more than ok overthrowing the wicked, bastardly baron, only to find out that there's been devious, dastardly duke giving orders. That kind of thing, yeah. I can deal with.

Well, mine would sort of be like this. There is a general of an army sweeping through the world. However he merely serves another even more powerful entity. Now after the PCs defeat the general, his master soon after shows up. After an epic quest to kill him. Another eveil seizes the oppurtunity to tale over most of the world, mostly due to its weakened state due to the previous enemy. However he is merely serving another power.

I think the frustration comes when it is unexpected. The players think they have 'won'; only to have that victory get stolen, because the "real" bad guy is tougher, and somewhere else.

If they *know* there is a 'higher power' bad guy, than they can still enjoy their victory withoutfeeling like it is being upstaged.

Like they know it is the 'evil duke' that is behind it all, but the immediate threat is the generals invasion. But the first step is to get to the Captain in the area, to get the (insert plot hook) that will allow them to get to the general, that will end the immediate threat, so they can go after the Duke.

Now, to have BIG fun. Have subtle hints from the beginning. (VERY subtle in the beginning) of someone/thing controlling the Duke. Like a Lich promising more power.

Coredump said:

I think the frustration comes when it is unexpected. The players think they have 'won'; only to have that victory get stolen, because the "real" bad guy is tougher, and somewhere else.

If they *know* there is a 'higher power' bad guy, than they can still enjoy their victory withoutfeeling like it is being upstaged.

Like they know it is the 'evil duke' that is behind it all, but the immediate threat is the generals invasion. But the first step is to get to the Captain in the area, to get the (insert plot hook) that will allow them to get to the general, that will end the immediate threat, so they can go after the Duke.

Now, to have BIG fun. Have subtle hints from the beginning. (VERY subtle in the beginning) of someone/thing controlling the Duke. Like a Lich promising more power.

Click to expand...

I am going to maybe drop a hint that thre is someone controlling everyone else at the very beginning of the adventures inception. The only reason the PCs will know that the generals master is his master is because his ghost will appear when they encounter his master. And he will tell the PCs who he is.

I'm with Prince of Happiness on there being limits to how high up the food chain things go. You can't keep coming up with bigger and bigger bad guys who have "secretly" controlled things behind the last big bad guy.

Track organization A through Evil Guy B through Temple of Big Bad Evil. Done. Maybe, just maybe have ticked off God of Big Bad Evil enough to send other minions. Otherwise End of Story. Go find other baddies, there are always plenty of them.

And chains of command don't always have to get bigger and badder. There can be something said for the great octopus chain of unexpected influences. Like the old Illuminati card game where the UFOs control the Mafia which controls the Oil Companies which control the Boy Sprouts *and* the Feminists. While at the same time another arm of the UFOs controls the South American Nazis who control the Dentists and the Orbital Mind Control Lasers, which in turn controls the Scifi Fans.

One day you're mopping up the remnants of the Boy Sprouts when you're attacked by Feminists and Oil workers. You're thinking WTF? because you didn't know there was any connection between them. And you still have no idea that there's any connection between them and those sinister Dentists who seem to be watching you. Or between them and your erstwile allies the Scifi Fans...

I like to keep more than one big bad guy bubbling away at a time, so while there is always the possibility of someone bigger and badder they don't have to make their appearance right away. It keeps everyone from getting bored with facing the same line of enemies one after the other, and it lets them to feel the satisfaction of actually beating the bad guy before they realise that he was just the cog in a much larger plan.

If there is a bigger big bad guy, they'll make their appearance some time later, after they've recovered from the disruption to their plans when one of their primary pawns has just been smeared across the landscape.

Besides, its much more fun to see the look on players faces when they realise that while they were off dealing with the problems caused by BBEG A, unrelated BBEG B has managed to solidify his hold on power...

For my Dungeon Damage campaign, I developed a world story, then presented that world to the PCs and watched them go. As expected, they eventually started working their way up the chain. They even have clues as to the identity of the Big Bad, whose lieutenant X recruited Y to create the Z, who in turn created the W to travel V, command the U, and prepare their conquest - but you don't know who W are. Not only did the PCs eventually discover the identity of W (after allying with Q and Q's allies S and M, but snubbing that horrible R), they started causing trouble for Z. Of course, Z still outclasses our heroes, and Y will be a nasty surprise for everyone... almost as nasty as the revelation of W's agent was. U, of course, are troublesome, but ultimately managable... and they've even caused major troubles for X, thanks to a magic item.

Of course, once they get past Z to the Y and finish X, they can take on the Big Bad and the story's over. Saved the world, or at least stopped Big Bad. They could, of course, do something off the wall, which would be OK - but the playing pieces are in place, and the world has seen their footprints. It's only a matter of time before they're recognised as footprints...

I wouldn't rewrite my plot to reveal Martian Emperor Draco, the Secret Father of the Big Bad, because that'd be stupid. There is room for continuation - but in other realms only tangentially related to the Big bad.

On a similar note, I'm doing something, well, similar with my scifi writing: examining the theme of increase. In a logical fashion with explosions.

So there are a lot of big people - but eventually there's an end.