Practiced Spellcaster feat

Liquidsabre

Explorer
Ourph said:
If the goal is to take away the drawbacks to multi-classing, let's at least be thorough. :p

You seem to be missing the point, non-caster/non-caster multi-classing combos aren't as debilitating as the caster/non-caster multi-classed characters.

Nothing wrong with this feat at all, though perhaps the fundamental need for such a feat to make caster/non-caster multiclassing more viable does appear to be a flaw in the system...

edit- instead of just bantering all day I'd like to see someone show how this feat is broken by posting a character build using this feat for all to peruse and look at. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke fellas.
 
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FireLance

Legend
Ourph said:
If this feat is balanced, then the next Rogue book should contain a feat giving a +4 bonus to all Rogue class skills for multiclass Rogues.
Skill ranks stack. Caster level doesn't.


The next Fighter book should contain a feat giving a +2 BAB for multiclass Fighters.
BAB stacks. Caster level doesn't.


The next Druid book should contain a feat giving a +4 equivalent class level for determining the HD of animal companions for multiclass Druids.
This at least makes sense, and would be useful to a high level multiclassed druid, so that his animal companion doesn't die in the first round of combat. Same for paladins and their special mounts.


If the goal is to take away the drawbacks to multi-classing, let's at least be thorough. :p
My experience (and of course, YMMV) is that spellcasters lose more than other classes when multiclassing because they get hit in three areas:

1. Caster level
2. Spells per day
3. Access to higher level spells

Practised Spellcaster only solves the first problem. Multiclassed spellcasters still face a trade-off because they have fewer and less powerful spells than a straight spellcaster.

However, if you are using some kind of Magic Rating system (such as the one in Unearthed Arcana) so that fighter levels increase your spellcaster levels in the same way that wizard levels increase your BAB, then I would agree there is no need for such a feat.
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
Ourph said:
If this feat is balanced, then the next Rogue book should contain a feat giving a +4 bonus to all Rogue class skills for multiclass Rogues. The next Fighter book should contain a feat giving a +2 BAB for multiclass Fighters.

If I multiclass a rogue with a high-skill class like a bard or ranger, you hardly notice the difference.

If I multiclass a fighter with a full-BAB class like a ranger or barbarian, he doesn't feel a thing.

If I multiclass a wizard with a primary arcane caster like a sorcerer... oops! He still loses out on everything that makes a high-level wizard powerful.

-Hyp.
 

hong

WotC's bitch
Ourph said:
Most multiclass casters I've seen use their spellcasting abilities to enhance the abilities of their primary class, NOT as direct attacks.

And they still suck.

Used that way, their spell abilities are exactly where they should be. The one level sorcerer casting Mage Armor and Shield is a good example. So is the Wizard/Rogue casting Mage Armor, Shield, Cat's Grace and Invisibility.

The only spell worth keeping there for the long term is shield. Everything else becomes irrelevant by about 10th level or so.

A Wiz3/Rog7 is much better at Rogueish stuff than a 10th level Wizard and much better at powering himself up with spells than a 10th level Rogue, but he's not as good at Rogue stuff as a 10th level Rogue and he's not as good at spellcasting as a 10th level Wizard.

Which, in a game as devoted to niche specialisation as D&D, is pretty much tantamount to saying that character is crap.

Guess what? That's the way it's SUPPOSED to be! Specialization = Power and Generlization = Flexibility.

The measure of interest, most of the time, is not individual flexibility. It's group flexibility, meaning what the _party as a whole_ can do. From that point of view, a party with a multiclassed spellcaster is very often less flexible than if that character was replaced by a specialised one. It doesn't matter how many times you can cast expeditious retreat, lesser restoration or invisibility, it doesn't make up for not being able to cast teleport, greater restoration, or greater invisibility. Even if a party already has all these bases covered, it never hurts to have more people who can do the job.

It's supposed to be a trade-off. Any multiclass caster who expects to be performing just as well (or nearly as well) as a single class caster in straight up spell combat vs. a creature with SR is asking to have his cake and eat it too.

It appears to have escaped your attention that caster level affects more than just SR checks.

Complaining that a Wiz/Rog isn't as good at overcoming SR as a straight Wiz is like complaining that a Ftr/Rog doesn't have as high a BAB as a straight Ftr or a Clr/Ftr isn't as good at turning undead as a straight Clr. Of course they aren't, you have to give up SOMETHING when you get sneak attack, evasion, uncanny dodge.

And you do. You give up higher level spells. Being able to cast a zillion invisibility spells just doesn't really make up for not casting greater invis.

You have to give up SOMETHING when you're getting extra feats, extra HP and martial weapon proficiencies.

Clr/ftr is one of the multiclass spellcasting combos that probably doesn't suck as hard as most, due to the strong synergy between cleric and fighter. You can't say that about most others.
 

Darklone

Registered User
(Psi)SeveredHead said:
I'd love to know what this feat is doing in a game where the Eldritch Knight can be found in a core book.

This takes away most of the only real disadvantage of being an eldritch knight. Did they think it was too weak? Wasn't that something that should have been discovered when they playtested the eldritch knight?
Ehem... the Eldritch knight IS in a corebook???
 

Thanee

First Post
Methos of Aundair said:
“Since the advent of 3.5 WotC has been trying to take away most of the disadvantages of multiclassing through feats (like this one), prestige classes (Mystic Theurge) and other rule changes. I think it's completely ridiculous and over-powered. Multiclassing is SUPPOSED to have disadvantages to offset the advantages of greater versatility. This is especially important for spellcasting classes, where multiclassing in two or more gives you a MUCH wider range of spells and more spells per day (though of a lower level). In my opinion it's driven by the company's (mostly correct) assumption that players seeking new and better advantages for their characters drive a large portion of the sales, so each new edition, book, etc. has something slightly MORE powerful or slightly MORE advantageous than everything that's come before to tempt people into buying. ”

I think he says it very well.
I think he completely missed the point. :)

Yes, there are plenty options to make multiclassed spellcasters better via feats or prestige classes.

There is a reason, why these are especially aimed towards multiclassed spellcasters, and that is, simply put, that multiclassed spellcasters suck.

Ok, now that's a bit harsh and surely not true for every single multiclassed spellcaster, but take for example a cleric/wizard, who takes both classes at an equal level. This character will be about as good as a 14th level character at level 20.

Yes, multiclassing adds versatility and takes away specialization, but multiclassing normally stacks. Hit points, BAB, saves, skills, feats, all these just add up, if you go towards a fighting class, BAB and hit points increase faster, if you go towards a skill class, skills increase faster. With multiclassing you control how fast these aspects of your character improve, and which you want to give more weight to.

However, spellcasting does not stack in any way with any other class, even other spellcasting classes.

There is no improvement, if you advance in other classes, and without an increase in caster level, many of the spells become completely useless later.

That's why there are so many options to improve multiclassed spellcasters, because they are needed to make like 80% of the multiclassed spellcasters viable (pretty much everything but the 1-2 levels of one and 18-19 levels of the other, which works fine without any such options).

Yes, Practiced Spellcaster is obviously better than Spell Penetration, if you have at least two levels of a non-spellcaster class, but that doesn't make it a better feat. For every pure caster it isn't even an option, because the feat won't do anything at all. A multiclassed spellcaster would pick Spell Penetration for the sole reason to keep his offensive spells useful at higher levels, but it isn't really enough to achieve this. In fact, these two feats aren't even compareable, since they are something completely different. Spell Penetration lets you increase your ability to punch through spell resistance beyond your level limit, while Practiced Spellcaster allows you to keep your ability at your level limit, so that the loss of spell levels doesn't result in too many penalties, as it would otherwise (lower caster level, lower spell level, lower spells per day).

Practiced Spellcaster is meant to lessen the impact of multiclassing on the spellcasters, since that impact is too high normally.

And it achieves this in a very sensible and balanced way, I might add.

Bye
Thanee
 

Thanee

First Post
Darklone said:
Ehem... the Eldritch knight IS in a corebook???
Uhm... maybe you should reread that post... ;)

EDIT: And yes, the DMG is considered a core book. :D

Bye
Thanee
 
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Thanee

First Post
(Psi)SeveredHead said:
I'd love to know what this feat is doing in a game where the Eldritch Knight can be found in a core book.

This takes away most of the only real disadvantage of being an eldritch knight. Did they think it was too weak? Wasn't that something that should have been discovered when they playtested the eldritch knight?
Practiced Spellcaster does not take away the real disadvantage of being an Eldritch Knight, which is, that you are always two levels below a pure caster in terms of spell level and spells per day.

What it does (and that wouldn't even apply to every Eldritch Knight), is, to keep the caster level high, so your spells will have the appropriate effect for your character level.

With buffs that are highly dependant on level, this is very important, since otherwise the benefit of being an Eldritch Knight is lessened too much compared to the still huge and continuously increasing disadvantage of being one full spell level behind in spellcasting ability.

Bye
Thanee
 

glass

(he, him)
Methos of Aundair said:
...One last time, I do not feel that not having access to the higher level spells is a penalty to a multiclassed character...

Not a penalty? Seriously?


glass.
 

Vrecknidj

Explorer
So BAB and saves have this "stackability" feature that makes multiclassing so simple for certain combinations (fighter/rogue, etc.). And, there is no such similar "stackability" for spells (per day, known, or caster level).

There's no need for a Ftr/Rog to take a prestige class (compare to mystic theurge) or a feat (compare to practised spellcaster) to continue to take full advantage of the two classes. Sure, a Ftr5/Rog4 doesn't have as good a BAB as a Ftr9, but it's better than a Rog9's BAB.

Since so much rides on caster level for spellcasters, there should be a similar progression system. It may seem that this is a bad idea, that a Clr5/Wiz5 shouldn't have a caster level of 10. But, a Rgr5/Ftr5 has a "fighter level" of 10 (as does a Bbn6/Rgr4, etc., etc.).

Similarly, a Clr8/Pal8 might have a caster level of 12. Perhaps the bard's "effective caster level" should be 2/3 of his level since his top spell is 6th level--I'm not sure about the poor bard.

But, there might be a way to house-rule this so that feats and prestige classes aren't required.

In the campaigns I run, there are far fewer PC spellcasters than there were in 2e or 1e.

Dave
 

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